1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ************************* INSTALLED: 19 DEC 86 ************************ 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION 6 PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privately owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 no restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the system is 10 privately owned, I retain the right to remove any and all messages which 11 I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the system, it will be 12 periodically purged of messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 13 to leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out of the 14 ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering the 15 message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to replace 16 the line. To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 17 type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 18 *********************************************************** 19 20 Let's see, in regard to right/wrong not being socially derived, or at least 21 that there are some absolutes to right an wrong. 22 Well, I would like to believe that myself, but it is hard to do so the more 23 I study the matter. Oh I have firmly held believes, and I feel strongly 24 that they are correct, that (at least most) of what I consider right and 25 wrong is best for both my own well being and the well being of the society 26 I live in. But I also recognize that there are other view points and what 27 I consider right or wrong may not be considered such in a different society. 28 The slavery issue as you pointed out is a case in point. For a particular 29 group it was not wrong. and in fact it was considered good, after all the 30 life they were leading was much better than the one they had in africa 31 (or china or whereever the particular group of slaves come from when 32 being enslaved by another group) for them they thought they were doing 33 the right thing. Even in that group treating a slave badly was considered 34 wrong. But let's turn to an even more revolting idea that our society 35 has inbeded in our minds, caniblism. It has been quite throughly ingrained 36 into the social consiousness that canibalism is bad. So much so that the 37 very thought of it is horrifying and repulsive to most people (even me). 38 And social concept is that if you even think that it might be acceptable 39 you're labeled as being mentally unstable. But if you think about it 40 logocally there is no basis in that sort of concept. At least as long 41 as you don't take another's life to perform the act, it even fits within 42 the strict moores of our society. Think of all the edible meat that 43 goes to waste everyday as people are pickled and barried or burned. 44 (I know it is hard to not be revulsed at the concept, but it is a totally 45 emotional feeling and is not based on logic.) In some countries up until 46 recent times (and I'm not too sure that it still isn't practiced) 47 caniblism was being practiced. It was a very ritualistic form, and 48 if you didn't take part you were considered to be strange or to have 49 something wrong with you. It was considered an insult to the individual 50 being eaten if you didn't partake. By eating him he became a part of 51 the tribe and thus lived forever in the life of the tribe itself. And 52 the tribe gained because it was belived that the knowledge, strength 53 and skills of who they eat was absobedinto the tribe making it stronger. 54 So was this right or wrong? By our standards it is a horible crime, 55 so revulsive as to hardly be thought of. And yet for them it was just 56 the opposite. It was considered wrong and revulsive to NOT do so. 57 And what about death? Is is right or wrong to try to keep someone 58 alive as long as possible when they are dying of a terminal disease, 59 in great pain. It is impossible no matter what for them to even recover. 60 Is it wrong to continue to force them to live this way, draining the 61 resources of their loved ones, forcing those very loved ones to go 62 through the pain and agony with this person? (it is almost always 63 impossible to understand the true impact of this sort of situation 64 unless you have gone through it yourself, watching a loved one 65 slipping away day by day as the agony of every breath becomes almost 66 unbearable despite the massive drugs being administered.) Is it right 67 to force this person to die this way. To hang on to every second. 68 To live the last hours, days, weeks or months in a coma because the 69 body deteriorated to the point that it could only be kept alive with 70 machines? Does this person not have the right to choose their own 71 life and death? Do they not have the right to decide how death comes 72 to them? Is it right to take that decision away from them and force 73 their last few moments of life to be filled with such agony that they 74 can no longer think or even live, that their world becomes nothing 75 but pain? My grandmother died of lung cancer, a painful death. Her 76 desire was to live in her own home as long as it was possible. The 77 family granted her that request, doing everything it could to support 78 her desire. The three years ago in November the condition worsened 79 to the point that she ended up in the hosptal. A few weeks later she was 80 moved to a rest home. Again she asked to be allowed to die with dignity, 81 and to not be attached to machines beyond what her own body could 82 support herself, again this was granted. Direct oxygen feed and morphine 83 were the only thing provided to ease her passage. That and the love 84 of the family. Was it wrong to not try to force an extra few days 85 out of her body by attaching advanced machines to her? I personally 86 feel it would have been wrong, yet there are those who consider it 87 wrong, that a person must be forced to live out every second of existance 88 on this earth no matter what. I fail to see how this is good, all it 89 acomplishes is to impoverish the family, and make everyone misserable. 90 My grandmother died at 3:00am 18 January 1984 with her family around 91 her. She died happy, I only hope that I can be so lucky as to be allowed 92 to die in peace with those I love around me when my time comes. 93 And yet in the back of my mind there is that nagging thought that 94 society has put there; was there something that could have be done to 95 extend her life? Is it right or wrong? who is to say. I can only go 96 my my own feelings as to what is right and wrong for me. Maybe they 97 don't fit what another person feels is right or wrong, but for my 98 universe and reality they fit, for it is my perception. but that 99 reality is based around and built from the society I live in, and to 100 live there comfortably I live with the values of that system. If I 101 don't I will be misserable, and that's a stupid way to live. 102 103 I'll leave with a couple of thoughts passed on to me in class the 104 other night (hey, two thoughts for the price of one!) 105 First, as long as we hate war there will be war. 106 Second, the single most self destructive word in the english language 107 is "(I'm) sorry". 108 ########################### The Innkeeper ############################# 109 Milord Innkeeper: some of thy friends do not find cannabilism repulsive. We 110 would object strongly to killing someone for food, but not to using their 111 body in this manner once they have no further use for it. 112 My studies reveal, however, that there is a valid reason for the 'tabu' 113 against cannabilism. Unless the meat is cooked very thoroughly it is certain 114 to pass on any diseases or parasite that may have afflicted the source. 115 There is at least on disease that is _only_ transmitted by cannabilism! 116 Kuru, the 'laughing sickness' of New Guinea is transmitted by eating the brain 117 of someone who is harboring the disease. 118 Your other point are well made though. 119 ..............................the apprentice.................................. 120 ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` 121 Right and Wrong? These are only semantic terms. I have another observation. 122 If you consider the definition of right or wrong, you will find that they don't 123 exist, except in the consideration of a fixed enviornmment, such as a machine. 124 It can be said that there is a right way to use a screwdriver, and a wrong 125 way, inasmuch as using a screwdriver the wrong way involves forcing it to do 126 something it was not designed for. Or, better yet, there is a wrong way to 127 tighten a standard thread machine screw. anyway, applying the terms Right and 128 Wrong to the actions of people is nothing more than sloppy english. The same 129 goes for the terms Good and Bad. When a person says that a particular action 130 is 'Good', then that person is merly being too lazy to properly phrase a 131 sentence, to reflect what they really mean. 132 It is a shame that our eduational system does not require people to take a 133 course in clear thinking. Only people who have a hazy idea of what they 134 believe and an unorganized approach to presenting it can argue the merits 135 of 'Good' and 'Bad'. 136 ```````````````````````````````Mr. Interceptor`````````````````````````````` 137 I CARE 138 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 139 At this point in the 'Right' and 'Wrong' discussion, I must interject a quuck 140 (quick) caution: Right, wrong, good, bad, rich, poor, better, worse, etc, are 141 all words, subject to personal definitions. Our society tries to tie specific 142 meanings and stigmas to those particular noises with dictionaries and morals, 143 but they are still defined by the individual. To quote Humpty Dumpty when 144 talking to Alice, "When *I* use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean, 145 nneither more nor less." Don't let words confuse you, and be very careful how 146 those words are chosen. Also, be very mindful of how and why the other person 147 chooses their words. Don't try to define the word 'Right', because the words 148 you use might mean something completely different to the listener. Instead, 149 be our example with your deeds. 150 .-.-.-. 151 A society defines itself as a group of people with something in common. That 152 commonality will define the 'good' and 'bad' of the society. This is in 153 keeping with what our host the Innkeeper has said of cannibalism. We, who 154 hold the body sacred in one manner call cannibalism 'bad', yet cannibals 155 call it 'good' (and maybe even tasty? :-). We can't judge them unless they 156 try to force their beliefs upon our society. 157 And that's the basis of all our little wars. 158 Words and values. 159 Ammbassadores must be very careful in thier choises of words. 160 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.Emu 161 ch /choises/choices/ 162 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 163 164 Is it me, or is the band getting bigger? 165 ++Come, sweet slumber, and shroud me in thy purple cloak+++++ Milch @ 4:55am 166 ############################################################### 167 Dear Backwater Participants: 168 169 I'm a graduate student in the school of Social Work at Portland 170 State. 171 172 I've been using Backwater as a vehicle for a research project 173 I'm doing for my masters degree thesis. The title of the thesis 174 is "The psycho-social impact of a negative re-inforcer on the 175 creative development and interaction in an electronic 176 community". You have all unknowingly participated in my 177 research and I would like to thank you. 178 179 The "WHO CAREDDS?" messages were the negative re-inforcer I 180 selected for my experiment. The hypothesis of the research 181 was that the constant repetition of the negative message 182 would de-sensitize people to its impact. 183 184 Unfortunately, the total opposite proved the case, it merely 185 infuriated everyone. 186 187 I discussed this phenomonon with my professor and he said it 188 didn't invalidate my study. He said it only meant that I needed 189 to re-examine my underlying premises to find my analytical 190 error. 191 192 Actually, I'm so disappointed in my research findings that I'm 193 seriously considering giving up my studies in social sciences. 194 I think instead I'm going to pursue a career as a topless 195 saxaphone player in a New Orleans whore house. Does anyone out 196 there offer saxaphone lessons? 197 198 Whatever I decide to do with my career, the data collection 199 aspect of the research is over and I'm going to stop entering 200 the WHO CARES? messages. That'll only leave the original 201 twit, and he hardly ever entered any of them anyway. 202 203 Cindi Jacobson 204 205 ############################################################## 206 ======================================== 207 A while back a mentally deranged migrant 208 worker was found carrying a dead baby 209 around Hillsboro. He has sexually abused 210 the child to death. The little girl died 211 of massive bleeding from her virgina 212 where he had forcefully penetrated her. 213 214 Right and wrong a, good and bad, are only 215 semantic terms? Bullshit. Mr. Interceptor 216 has spent too much time listening to 217 half baked philosophy professors. The next 218 thing you know he'll be arguing that 219 Cindi Jacobson's research project was a 220 valid work of science. 221 222 Sometimes I wonder about you people. 223 224 Dudley 225 ======================================= 226 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 227 I think what the problem with semantics was that he was trying to determine 228 if an object (ie screwdriver) was either good or bad. I don't think that 229 objects can be good or bad (even nuclear wepons), or perhaps even actions, 230 but the important issue is what conceptions are good or bad. I think that 231 there can be no doubt that the above actions are bad (disgustingly so... 232 and I really think we needed that graphic reminder of how bad things can 233 get so close to our own homes). 234 However, I'd like to pose a moral delema (sorry, I'm not sure I'm spelling 235 correctly, my major wasn't english) to you all. We can say that killing of 236 another person is wrong. The concept of using a screwdriver as a killing 237 instrument was wrong. So is the use of nuclear wepons, only on a greater 238 scale. So if you saw a person about to detonate a nuclear device, and the 239 only real chance you could see to stop him in time is to kill him with you're 240 (sorry again english fans) screwdriver, what would you do? Die with a clean 241 concience or stop him? 242 Fast Fred. 243 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 244 Just a comment on some of the above.. 245 1) Slavery was not in its time a Moral issue as we are led to believe , It 246 was an economic issue and was in fact dying out...If you stop to consider 247 the expense of keeping people alive and well all their working lives then 248 you can realize the problems faced by the owners of said people. It made 249 sense to adopt (as they were doing) either a share crop system or direct 250 wages.Both systems are still in use today, and I believe the direct wage 251 system is by far the most evil of the two.Companies today can use people 252 whenever and however they choose and when they (the workers) are used up 253 or worn out or obselete , discard them into the trash heap of the unemplo 254 yed..And if a complaint is made ..We say something like "thats the system" 255 ect. 256 2) who cares....you foolishly overlookedthat human (only) quality to 257 resist the negative and accentuate the positive,to look forward to better 258 things and to work to create them and or the conditions to make it better.. 259 faster..easier.. 260 3) Eating human ,,,,social conditioning here I admit,but still 261 Bob Blackburn 262 ____12/20/86__________________JD 2446785.3334_________12:00:08_PST_________ 263 ############################################################# 264 Cindi: Assuming you are who you say (who can tell on this crazy system?) 265 I agree with your professor, the problem that the activity you took 266 is something that is a lot more complex then it would seem on the 267 surface. Feelings and emotions are very complex things. The problem 268 was not the negative re-enforcement message, but rather the mechanism 269 used to put it across. As with an earlier discussion, a supposedly 270 positive message "Trust Jesus" actually can have significant negative 271 aspects when it violates perceptions of what is the proper means of 272 getting the message across. In the case described scralling the message 273 on public surfaces and private surfaces in view of the public. 274 What you were in reality messuring was violation of personal space, 275 and not negative re-enforcement. (At least in my opinion.) The other 276 aspects were there, but they were covered up by the stronger survival 277 emotions (which is what is at the bottom of personal space violation). 278 I think if you were to find a better why of performing your experiment 279 that could isolate out the other emotions involved that you would have 280 better luck. Or maybe sift through what you got to find out what you 281 real found. 282 I don't think you failed. Oh you didn't get the results you were expecting, 283 but that is hardly anything new. But that isn't failure, it is sucess, 284 you got a result. That is something positive and something to work with. 285 Perhaps you can divert you original threoy to encompass what you found. 286 That's how science moves ahead by leaps and bounds, when results come 287 back that were unexpected. 288 ######################### The Innkeeper ############################### 289 Back to the other subject of right verses wrong etc. 290 Slavery dying out? Depends on what time frame you look at it. When it started 291 in the last major incident in the western world it was a great economic 292 success. It solved many great problems of the western world at the time. 293 It did not die because of the expense of feeding them, that is really not 294 that difficult. The current system is far more expensive and in reality 295 still relies heavily on the excessive use of resources for the use of the 296 few. Slave labor is just that, a resource, nothing more (which is why 297 society says it is bad, we feel that somehow people are more than just 298 a resource to be used, so we teach our children that slavery is bad.) 299 What caused slavery to come to disuse largely was that other cheaper 300 methods of getting the job done were found, particulary the invention 301 of the steam engine which lead to the industrial revolution. Slave 302 labor stuck around for quite some time after that, but that is because 303 it took time for the new way of life to spread through out the western 304 society. But it is hardly a new thing. We have always had cases of slave 305 labor through out history. One of the more well know other examples 306 was the enslavement of the Hebrews in as described in the bible. 307 It wasn't economic change that cuased that demise, but rather the 308 abuse of their task masters became so great that it overcame the ingrained 309 concept within the slaves that it was all they were good for. If you 310 are going to die anyway, why not die a free man? 311 As was pointed out on the right/wrong/good/bad they are not absolutes 312 defined as a basic part of nature. It changes depending on circumstances. 313 What about something that is neither good nor bad. Case in point, 314 what about a rock, is it good or bad? What if it is part of a road bed? 315 What if someone trips over it and breaks their leg? What if it is just 316 sitting on a mountainside and noone has ever even seen it? Is it good 317 or bad? 318 The point is, if you are not aware of something how can it have good 319 or bad qualities. This shows that good and bad is something that we 320 define ourselves How about an earthquake? It isn't even an object, 321 but an action. Yet we think of them as being bad because it disrupts 322 our lives, yet there is no malice involved, it just happens. 323 How about if a woman killed a man after intercourse, currently our 324 society deems that as being a horible thing to do, but the Black Widow 325 spider does it. Doe sthat make the Black Widow spider a bad creature? 326 Well, my disks are all formated now, so it's back to work for me.... 327 ############################# The Innkeeper ########################## 328 then you agree that slavery was an economic issue????? 329 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++off 330 #################################################################### 331 Certianly there were large economic aspects to it. Though slavery can exist 332 for other then economic reasons, the slavery that was involved in the early 333 years just prior to the industrial revolution was based on economic 334 reasons. That does not invalidate the existance of moral issues though. 335 All through the period there were those who considered it a bad idea, 336 and there were others who didn't care. I was not arguing the economic 337 issue of slavery verses other forms of labor, i was exploring the moral 338 issue of good and bad in the specific instance of employing a human being 339 for the return of only a meager existance. Is it good or bad, and the 340 difference in view point over time as society changes to the new rules 341 we set for ourselves. 342 That was the point about hating war, as long as we hate war, we acknowledge 343 its existance. We create war by hating it. As long as we hate war it will 344 exist because by that very hate we give it existance. 345 ################################ The Innkeeper ############################ 346 347 ------------------- 348 I don't know about other colleges and universities, but a Philosophy 349 professor who claimed that right and wrong were entirely relative 350 would not last long at the University of Oregon... 351 352 Max the Philosopher 353 ------------------- 354 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 355 If we accept, for the moment, that 'good' and 'bad' are relative terms, 356 relative to the society in which the question is asked, then is truth 357 also relative ? 358 359 Cindi - I know it seems that your study was a waste, but look at the state of 360 Backwater !!! Enlightened and enlightening discussions. Thanks. 361 362 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Friar of the tree. [][][][][][][][][][][][] 363 364 JESUSS INSLAVES 365 366 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< 367 Perhaps the words should not be "right" and "wrong", but rather "correct" or 368 "incorrect" within a social context. For example, cannibalism is "incorrect" 369 in relation to the mass of general guidelines given us by our social background 370 . This could also be extended to other things such as crime. A person is not 371 good or bad, but the social background they come from may differ greatly from 372 ours and therefore be "incorrect" in our view of them from the background 373 given us. These terms are a little less relative, but relative nonetheless. 374 Words have so many meanings that what you don't say can be as important 375 or more important than what you do say. Learning a foreign language will 376 make you more aware of this, that words mean different things in different 377 contexts, and one must be very aware in order to gain the meaning closest to 378 what the speaker or writer intended. Sometimes it would be nice if people 379 were selectively telepathic. They'd get their meaning across clearer, and would 380 not be as prone to misleading statements. 381 Who knows? Thank you for allowing me my weekly quota of ranting and 382 raving. I used to be a language major, really. When one is taught straight 383 technical, one has a tendency not to understand. Try understanding the 384 'morphophonemics' (nice word, huh?) of Russian's genitive plural case. 385 Computer science must be a lot easier to understand. At least it is a fairly 386 regular and results can be predicted. 387 'Til whenever, 388 UnBeLiEv 389 Er. 390 391 P.S. Milchar: I guess not. I can probably use my tax return to finance part 392 of it, unless I win the lottery. Who knows? Finagle's law must apply in any 393 situation. 394 ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< 395 ************************************************************************ 396 To the Editor: 397 Frankly, I am embarrassed. Why can't our goverment loosen up a tad? 398 Tonight a discusion came up in our home, it envolved the soviets efforts 399 at peace. I truely believe that these are genuine signs of peace. It 400 was mentioned that it could all be propaganda and that I was being brain- 401 washed. I had an answer for this one too. Our goverment has been telling 402 us for years that we are the good guys, and the russians are the bad guys. 403 Considering just how "honest" the goverment has been lately, I consider 404 them to be distrustworthy. This has also been reinforced in what we see 405 on good old t.v.. Silly movies about the russians raiding the USA and 406 killing people. My god, are we really going to be sucked in by all of 407 that? I say no! The russians have really made some changes recently, 408 starting with allowing their people to run their own INDEPENDENT buisnesses. 409 That is capitalism. Also what about this Sokerav (sp) guy? They decided 410 to let him out of exile. And what is he doing? He's going home to Moscow. 411 His home, where he is at peace. The russians are willing to pull their 412 nukes out of europe, but Reagon bulks. What does Reagon do? He orders 413 a whole bunch more missles that will travel around on the nations railways. 414 Imagine that, a 7 warhead missle sitting down at UNION STATI 415 ON. 416 I guess Ive said my 3 or 4 cents worth, please no ranting and raving 417 about me being "unamerican." I love my country, most of the time. 418 ******************************kathyD********************************************* 419 THIS IS A MODEM CHECK. SORRY TO WASTE YOUR SPACE LIKE THIS. EVERYTHING SEEMS OK 420 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 421 NICE NOVEL. NO MESSAGE. NO POINT. NO PUNCHLINE. PLEASE, DO NOT REPLY. 422 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 423 Your kind of violence is so nonchalant, just a slap in the face, no power 424 fake it, fake it, for everybody else 425 cqme qn 426 427 428 429 nevermind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 430 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 431 Believe it or not, I had a conversation last night with a person who 432 still is very much in favor of "Peace through superior firepower". I 433 really didn't think there were any (at least at collage age level) left 434 around here. Sad really..... 435 Fast Fred @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ 436 =============================================================== 437 Cindi: It took a real bitch to do what you did. You cloak your 438 activities in a lot of scientific jargon but the bottom line is 439 that your WHO CARES? vandalism hurt peoples feeling and you 440 don't give a damn! 441 442 Do you have any idea what the long term effect of all those 443 WHO CARES? messages? Of course you do, that was the whole idea 444 of your "experiment". You were trying to make people feel shitty 445 in the name of science. It's your kind of science that tortures 446 rats, plants implants in the brains of little kitties, and 447 injects drugs into prison "volunteers". 448 449 It wouldn't be nearly so bad if you didn't gloss over what 450 you did with your scientific impartiality and condescension. 451 I know that most of the guys on this board will stick up for 452 what you did because you're a girl. I think there some things 453 even sex doesn't excuse. 454 455 Disgruntled 456 ============================================================= 457 ####################################################################### 458 Certainly truth is relative. As are facts. Truth is usually based on 459 personal observation something we call a fact. Yet this is based on 460 presumption that what we see it true. Fact and thus truth has been 461 continually disrupted through out history. And by that many times it 462 has disrupted our notions of right and wrong. (I don't use the terms 463 correct or incorrect, because it just white-washes the use of the concept. 464 I agree that correct and incorrect are closer usage to what is being ment, 465 but since everyone uses right or wrong which are more powerful words 466 to get across their ideas, I use the same words mor my arguements.) 467 But back to facts and truth... A recent example of truth being changed 468 on a global scale, and thus changing our reality as our society has 469 defined it, was Einstien's theorys. Before that we lived in a Neutonian 470 world where our ideas about the world were based on his laws. Everything 471 was fixed. You did something, and it affected something else. Simple 472 and striaght forward. What goes up must come down. For every action 473 there is an equal and oposite reaction. This was great stuff compared to 474 what we believed before that. But then came along Einstien with his 475 everything is relative stuff, and suddenly the world changed and took 476 on a more complex form. Things weren't quite so easy anymore. Limits 477 were defined, actions didn't always cause oposite and equal reactions. 478 physists had a hayday (and still are) because they finally had new 479 worlds and concepts to explore. Even right this moment they are in 480 the process of redefining our world, finding new understandings to 481 old concepts and many times disrupting the old ideas so badly that 482 they must be thrown away entirely. Thus a one time fact becomes nothing 483 but a concpet that is no longer valid. And that is what fact is, a 484 concept that we believe to be true because we have observed other facts 485 that prove it to be so. The problem is that we are basing our proofs on 486 exsiting concepts of how the world is. An example is before Copernicus, 487 the world was the center of everything, and all the planets revolved 488 around it. The very basis of astronomy was to more closly define those 489 orbits. No one every really considered that it might not be that way. 490 Then along came Copernicus with this new idea. And all of the sudden 491 the world changed. The old facts were thrown out, and new ones put in 492 there place. Now observations and new fatcs are based on those new facts 493 that Copernicus created. If the very facts we base our beliefs on are 494 that unstable, who is to say that the facts we belief today will be 495 believed tomorrow? 496 "We like to believe that the world progresses in an orderly fashion, 497 that all advances are based on previous knowledge. Yet history has shown 498 that everytime a new major advance has taken place it has required that 499 we throw away all of our old ideas in order to accept the new ones." 500 James Burke - 501 ########################### The Innkeeper ############################## 502 To Unbeliever: The problem with words is that in themselves they are meaningless 503 that is why they change from day to day. words are the carriers of ideas. 504 When an idea can't be gotten across with an existing word we create a new 505 one. often this is done by simply attaching a new meaning to and old word, 506 or slightly modifying it to attach the new meaning. My feathers get ruffled 507 when someone says that a word is not valid because it doesn't exist in some 508 dictionary. Any language that doesn't change is a dead language. It is dead 509 because there is no one who uses it on a daya to day basis, and thus there is 510 no need to create new words. It isn't old bearded professors sitting in 511 some dark room filled with books that create new words. It is the people 512 who use them. We the people who speak and use the language every day. When 513 we need a new word we create it. When a concept dies the word that was 514 attached to it goes into storage. maybe a new concept will be attached to 515 it later, or maybe it will never see the light of day again. Words are 516 tools that we take down and use to convay our concepts to others. And 517 when we are done with them we put them away again. 518 ############################# The Innkeeper ############################### 519 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 520 CINDI> IF YOU WANT GUNIEA PIGS, GOTO THE ZOO. KEEP US OUT OF YOUR RESEARCH. 521 I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE A GREAT MANY SOCIOLOGISTS AND PSYCHOLOGISTS OUT THERE THAT ARE A LOT CRAZIER THAN ANY 522 OF THE PEOPLE THEY STUDY OR "HELP". 523 THEY CAUSE A LOT OF THE WORLDS PROBLEMS!!!!!!!!!!!111 524 525 THEY BECOME SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS AND GOVT. OFFICIALS. YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS THEN. 526 527 PURSUE ANOTHER CAREER FOR YOUR OWN SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 528 529 <><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 530 531 532 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 533 SKATER DUDE:How do you get to the power room in ADVENT X-5????????????????? 534 535 Help?????!!!!! 536 537 A MAN CALLED GUMBY 538 539 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 540 541 542 One day, The Art Of Noise met Tommy Cooper on his way to hear Weber's music, 543 when he told them that one should always listen to Webber's music in mauave! 544 545 ++++545+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 546 UnBeLiEvEr: The person you live with knocked on my abode's door this morn, 547 looking for you. Said person was in the company of a person called Denise, 548 ring any bells? I told him where I thought you were (which you are, being 549 able to enter here). 550 program search;var truth:boolean;begin repeat writeln('searching for truth') 551 until false end. 552 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Milchar ++++++ December 21, 1986 ++++ 553 hello is anyone out their I'm brand new to the feild of telecomm and though 554 555 ht I would give you guys or gals depending on witch this message is 556 going to. to leva 557 mike day are you out there? 558 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 559 for the next 60 seconds this station a test of the emergency broadcast system. 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 THIS STATION has been conduting a test of the emergency broadcast syste 569 570  571 system this would have been a act 572 enter 573 574 575 576 577  578 Where can I get a current list of BBS in the Portland area. leave message for 579  580 581 582  for Jonny V. 583 DE 10 584 ******************************lurkiousmodiest*******kathyD******************** 585 Cindi - Since no one has yet offered saxaphone lessons, I thought I would 586 at least help your career along by offering you topless lessons. My place 587 or yours ? -- Lech 588 589 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 590 Cindi: 591 For many reasons, I stopped checking in at the Inn frequently about a year a 592 ago. Several months later, I peeped in a few times, and what I recall most, are 593 the WHO CARES. I would sigh, convinced that the Backwater was permanently 594 infested with twits, and not venture back for long periods. If you are what you 595 say you are, take what you will from my comments. I learned something, based on 596 what I've read preceding this message, my hasty judgement may have deprived me 597 of some rich discussion here. Perhaps the WHO CARES encouraged people to rebel 598 and/or care. I wouldn't know, as I mentioned I haven't been around. 599 __________________________________ 600 601 To the Innkeeper: Nice to see you being so vocal here, you're leading interes- 602 esting discussions. When I was here before, you weren't that often. 603 604 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Miss Nomer $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 605 ########################################################################## 606 True, it seems to go in cycles. Usually I just stay in the background 607 and let the others talk. But every once in a while a subject suits my 608 fancy and I jump in with both feet. (and often times as not end up with them getting broken!) 609 ####################### The Innkeeper ################################### 610 Mr. Johnny V. 611 The BBS system "MC3" p 612 publishes a monthly newslett 613 er that lists many of portla 614 nd's Boards 615 616 617 618 619 (pexcuse my weird typing) Boards, or u can c 620 contact Les Brunker on the "Q". Its number is 771-xxxx. Just 621 leave him an E-mail and he'll be glad to rgive you some numbers. 622 mCraig Chatter 623 ChatChatChatChatCjhatChatChatChatChatChatChatChatChatChatchatChatChatChatChat TOTAL NUMBER OF LINES = 623