LIST FILE ON MARGIN IS 83 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 563 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ********************** REMOVED: 23 SEP 83 ************************** 3 Welcome to BWMS (Backwater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the disk, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 TO CONTINUE, AS FOR LIGHT ON DARK/DARK ON LIGHT, IT REALLY DEPENDS ON AN 26 ENORMOUS NUMBER OF FACTORS. MANY OF THEM RELATED TO THE HARDWARE. ONE 27 ASPECT THAT MOST FORGET IS THAT FOR THE DARK ON LIGHT TO BE ACCEPTABLE 28 YOU MUST USE A VERY HIGH QUALITY CRT OF WHICH MOST ARE NOT. THIS IS BECAUSE 29 IN THE LOWER QUALITY CRTS THE LETTERS TEND TO BLURE TOGETHER. IN THE LOWER 30 QUALITY CRTS THIS RESULTS IN LETTERS THAT HAVE DIFFERENT LINE WIDTHS DEPENDING 31 ON THE SPECIFIC COMPOSITION OF THE LETTER. IT IS FAR EASIER AND CHEAPER TO 32 JUST PROVIDE THE LIGHT ON DARK FORMAT. THE PROBLEM WITH MOST CRTS THAT 33 PROVIDE THE OPTION TO GO THE OTHER WAY IS THAT THEY ARE NOT OF SUFFICIENT 34 QUALITY TO DO IT PROPERLY. BUT EVEN HERE THERE ARE ASPECTS TO CONSIDER. 35 IF THE CRT IS USING GRAY SCALE DISPLAY, THEN THE WHOLE CONCEPT HAS TO BE 36 RECONSIDERED. HOW DO YOU DISPLAY THE GRAY? THE TERMINAL I AM USING IS 37 CAPABLE OF WHITE BACKGROUND WITH DARK CHARACTERS, BUT I DON'T USE IT 38 BECAUSE ALTHOUGH THE CHARACTERS ARE READABLE, THEY ARE STILL NOT PERFECT 39 AND IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO READ. WHILE THE WHITE ON DARK IS NOT AS MUCH 40 A PROBLEM. AS FAR AS USING THE DARK ON WHITE, I HAVE USED IT ON A GOOD CRT 41 AND I HAVE FOUND IT TO BE FAR BETTER WHERE THE APPLICATION FITS (TYPING 42 FROM A WHITE PAPER COPY) IN THIS ASPECT THE WHITE BACKGROUND WITH DARK 43 LETTERS MORE CLOSLY MATCHS THE PAPER FROM WHICH I WAS COPYING WHICH 44 REDUCED THE CONFUSION TIME OF ADAPTING BETWEEN LOOKING AT THE SCREEN AND 45 LOOKING AT THE PAPER. HOWEVER IF I AM NOT COPYING FROM A PEICE OF PAPER, 46 THEN IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER AS LONG AS THE QUALITY OF THE CRT IS HIGH 47 ENOUGH TO DO THE JOB PROPERLY. (WHICH GIVEN THE QUALITY OF MY CRTS MEANS 48 WHITE CHARS ON BLACK BACKGROUND.. SIGH...) 49 WHILE I AM HERE, I'LL ADD THIS LITTLE ADDITION TO THE PREVIOUS EXCERPT; 50 The geometric design of characters and symbols which is also within the 51 discipline of ergonomics and industrial design, must be clear and unambiguous. 52 The legibility of the characters should not be impaired by geometric 53 distortions. All characters must be completely formed and the descenders of 54 lower case letters must extend below the writing line. The character width 55 of capital letters should amount to about between 50%-70% of the character 56 height. Also, it's important to note that the exclusive use of capital letters 57 is only suitable for brief information and for highlighting. Conversely, 58 heavier eye strain results in the exclusive use of small letters. It is 59 important that the displayed characters must not touch each other. 60 61 In closing, one of the comments I often get when complaining to keyboard 62 manufactures about their poor designs is that a good typist doesn't mind 63 the poor layout... hmmm. I have several comments on that. First, a rather 64 large number of the users are NOT good typists and they need all the help 65 they can get. Second, while a good typists may not complain loudly over 66 every rotten keyboard they come across, I have seen poor designs which 67 very significantly impacted performance. Most noticably the placement 68 of the return key as noted earlier. When you have to break home row 69 position to hit the return key, the keyboard is not properly designed 70 and no amount of excuses or finger pointing can change that. 71 ***** VERBOSLY YOURS CISTOP MIKEY ******* 11:30 AM **** 18 SEPT 83 ******** 72 HI! MY NAME IS CKARLIE AND IM NEW ON THES THING 73 PLEASE DROP ME A LINE ON HOW TO USE BWS 74 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 75 MIKEY, YOU'RE SO RIGHT!! A GOOD TYPIST WILL ADAPT TO A LOUSY KEYBOARD, BUT 76 THAT DOESN'T MAKE THE KEYBOARD BETTER. SMALL RETURN KEYS, ODD PLACEMENT, 77 PUTTING CONTROL, INVERSE, BREAK, ESCAPE, AND OTHER SUCH KEYS NEXT TO THE 78 SHIFT, ETC., CAN BE A REAL PROBLEM, AND CAN CAUSE A LOT OF HAIR BEING PULLED 79 OUT OF HEADS. I LOVE THE IBM PC (SO ALL YOU IBMers, PLEASE DON'T TAKE 80 OFFENSE), BUT THE KEYBOARD ON IT IS VERY POORLY DESIGNED, ESPECIALLY FROM A 81 COMPANY THAT BROUGHT US THE SELECTRIC. BUT INDEPENDANT COMPANIES HAVE 82 BROUGHT OUT KEYBOARDS FOR THE IBM THAT ARE SUPERIOR, SO IF IT IS A REAL 83 PROBLEM, A BETTER ONE IS AVAILABLE. 84 AARON.....ARE YOU JUST A TEASE, OR HAVE YOU DISSAPEARED? 85 YOU SAID "CAN WE TALK?", I RESPONDED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE, YOU ASKED FOR A 86 SUBJECT, I GAVE US ONE, AND YOU THEN PROCEEDED TO DISSAPEAR INTO THE 87 TWILIGHT ZONE. HAVE YOU GIVEN UP ON THE INN? CQ, AARON, CQ........ 88 89 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][] 90 MIKEY - THAT WAS ME ON THE OTHER DISK BEING TOO POLITE - I FORGOT TO PUT IN 91 MY NAME OR ELSE CONTROL-C'd WHILE STILL AT THE END OF THE LINE - I HAVE NOW 92 ADDED THE NAME. I'M SURE GLAD I WAS BEING TEMPORARILY POLITE (BACK A WHILE 93 WHEN I WAS MUCH LESS POLITE I WAS ALMOST THE ONLY ONE SIGNING ON AFTER A 94 WHILE...) BECAUSE... SEE NEXT MESSAGE. 95 BAD - YOU HAVE GOT ME NAILED SECURELY TO THE WALL. I CHECKED MY PREVIOUS 96 ASSERTION WITH MY WEBSTERS COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY WHICH ASSURED ME THAT 97 GUANO WAS ONLY FROM BIRDS. I HAVE NOW CHECKED AN ENCYCLOPEDIA AND FOUND 98 OUT ABOUT THE GRAND CANYON BAT CAVE, THE MOST SIGNIFICANT DEPOSIT OF GUANO 99 INSIDE THE U.S. ETC ETC. I WOULD LIKE HOWEVER TO POINT OUT THAT THIS ONLY 100 RE-AFFIRMS MY CHOICE OF THE NAME. HAVING BEEN INTIMATELY INVOLVED 101 IN FARMING AND HORTICULTURE AT ONE TIME, I HAVE WORKED QUITE CLOSELY WITH 102 VARIOUS KINDS OF CRAPOLA. I WANTED A PSEUDONYM THAT QUALIFIED AS THE 103 ABSOLUTE NADIR OF THE VARIOUS MANURES, AND AM GLAD TO HAVE YOUR ASSURANCE 104 THAT I HAVE JUST SUCH A ONE. 105 BAD - I SEE YOU WANT TO SET THE LEGAL SYSTEM BACK A FEW THOUSAND YEARS. I 106 WOULD LIKE TO KNOW JUST WHAT THE RATIO OF BLACKS TO WHITES IN PRISON 107 YOU REFERRED TO MEANS TO YOU. I AM SOMEWHAT STUNNED TO HERE OF THIS IN 108 THE SAME BREATH AS AN ARGUMENT FOR PREVENTIVE DETENTION. COULD YOU 109 ELUCIDATE? DO YOU DARE? I ALSO WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO DO ABOUT 110 THE GUY WITH THE WEAPON ON THE STREET - TAKE THE GUN AWAY OR PUT HIM 111 IN JAIL BEFORE HE BUYS A GUN, OR WHAT? YOU'RE BEING QUITE VAGUE - OUT 112 OF NECESSITY, I SUSPECT. I ALSO TAKE ISSUE WITH THE STATEMENT THAT 113 MOST PEOPLE ARE HONEST, IN THE SENSE THAT YOU SEEM TO MEAN IT, WHICH IS 114 THE IMPLICATION THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T BREAK THE LAW. THAT'S BULLSHIT, 115 AS OUR BELOVED PRESIDENTE HAS POINTED OUT. IN HIS CAMPAIGN REAGAN NOTED 116 THAT WITH 30,000,000 LAWS ON THE BOOKS ALL OF US HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO 117 BREAK DOZENS OF LAWS EACH AND EVERY DAY. HOW ABOUT PUTTING ALL OF US IN 118 PREVENTATIVE DETENTION? AND IF YOU SAY NONE OF THOSE RULES THAT ARE 119 BEING BROKEN ARE SERIOUS, WELL, DO YOU EVER SPEED ON THE FREEWAY. EVER? 120 AND HAVE SPEEDERS EVER KILLED ANYONE? SERIOUS ENOUGH. THERE IS IN 121 FACT A CRISIS IN THE LAW IN THIS COUNTRY. HOWEVER, THE BUNGLING EFFORTS 122 OF JINGOISTS WILL NOT PREVENT INJUSTICE, IT WILL ADD TO IT. 123 124 I NOTICE YOU DIDN'T DENY THAT THESE ARE FAVORITE TACTICS OF TOTALITARIANS 125 SO I GUESS YOU ADMIT THAT. MAYBE YOU DON'T THINK RUSSIA WOULD BE THAT 126 BAD A PLACE TO LIVE? BREATHLESSLY AWAITING YOUR NEXT BRAINLESS 127 CONTRIBUTION. 128 129 TO ALL: HOW COME NOBODY IN A GROUP LIKE THIS IS INTERESTED IN THE SUBJECT 130 OF BETTER COMPUTER INFORMATION UTILITIES, SINCE YOU USE THIS ONE ALL THE TIME 131 I DIDN'T GET ANY RESPONSES AT ALL TO MY LAST QUERY ABOUT A FREE 132 DATABASE AND NO-ONE IS MAD ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT STEALING YOUR TAX 133 DOLLARS TO CREATE DATA BASES THAT THEY TURN OVER TO BIG COMPANIES 134 TO PROFIT FROM WITH NO INVESTMENT OF THEIR OWN. I SPEAK HERE OF 135 LOCKHEED IN PARTICULAR. PERHAPS IT GOT THIS PLUM FOR BEING SUCH A 136 NICE TAME MILITARY CONTRACTOR THAT ALL THE OLD GENERALS RETIRE TO AFTER 137 A LIFETIME OF MISAPPROPRIATING PUBLIC FUNDS. THIS IS A MULTI-BILLION 138 DOLLAR RIPOFF LIABLE TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE DOWNFALL OF OUR ECONOMY IN 139 A SIGNIFICANT WAY AND NOBODY ANSWERS ME ABOUT IT!!!!! SOMEBODY JUST 140 TELL ME IT'S OF NO INTEREST AND I'LL QUIT BRINGING IT UP 141 MIKEY - WANT ME TO GET RUDER OR IS THIS BAD ENOUGH? DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS - 142 MOST OF THE EASY TARGETS HAVE BEEN PRETTY QUIET LATELY AND I'M 143 KINDA RELUCTANT TO BE TOO RUDE TO ANYONE I'VE HEARD FROM THE LAST FEW 144 DAYS - UNSIGNED,COME BACK!!! WE NEED YOU. 145 ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))BATPOOP, THE MAGNIFICENT+++++++++++++++++ 146 }{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{ 147 Kaypro may fall because the machine costs too much to build, and there are 148 far, far, far too many dealers who should not be dealers (lots of inventory 149 sitting in guys garages.) I'm told the stock offering fizzled out. Kaypro 150 is NLS, a 30 year old test equipment company. The explosive growth caused 151 by the Kaypro line may be just that, explosive. Nuff said. 152 153 Dearest Batpoop: Just what was it we gave Lockheed? (besides an awful lot 154 of money for equipment, some of which works pretty good.) 155 156 the Phantom Glitch 157 $S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S$S 158 As for the screen issue, I use white-on-black, and am satisfied with it. Having used green on black before, it is equally 159 good. I don't like orange-on-black. As for the inverses, I think they are acceptable, but I'd rather not use them. 160 I believe white-on-black tolerates unfocussedness (is that really a word, or am I just making it up?) better than the 161 reverse. 162 Keyboards: I can get used to anything, but I can't stand going from one keyboard to another daily. Especially when the 163 positions of the commonly-used symbols changes. Keyboard manufacturers must think theirs is the only layout that has, 164 is, or will ever be used, and test accordingly. 165 Movie trivia question: What was the name of the soldier in Dr. Strangelove that was played by actor Keenan Wynn? Some of 166 the recent comments reminded me of this. 167 Is this system getting busier recently; Getting on is a PAIN! 168 Ah yes, Kaypro: The Kaypro has an acceptable-sized screen and nice-sized floppy drives. It may succeed where Osborne has 169 failed. As for Osborne, regardless of what we think of the computer, we owe a lot to it, making the price of computers 170 lower than it used to be. 171 172 What percentage of the users on this system CANNOT read >80 columns? 173 ============**********::::::::::==========::::::::::Anon.==========********* 174 PAM: You might be interested in knowing that I talked to the manufacturer of 175 the IBM keyboard (Keytronics) about a year and a half ago. The result was 176 interesting. First, the key placment was specified by IBM. As was the noisy 177 key clicking. The keycap sizing (all 3/4 inch square) was defined by 178 Keytronics. The reason was the hardware. The low profile switching used 179 does not allow for proper keytravel arangement. As such the keystrike area 180 had to be limited to single wide keys. Thus the reason for all keys the same 181 size. The skerts were provided on certain keys to allow for shifting key 182 positions to be in the desired places. So there you have it, the single 183 wide keys were the result of an engineering fudge, not design. 184 ******* CISTOPP MIKEY ****** 8:26 PM ******* 18 SEPT 83 ***************** 185 186 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 187 VERY INTERESTING, MIKEY. I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED HOW A COMPANY THAT COULD 188 MAKE THE SELECTRIC KEYBOARD COULD COME UP WITH THE ONE ON THE PC, WHICH IS 189 ONE OF THE WORST AROUND THAT I HAVE SEEN TO DATE. I ACTUALLY PREFER THE 190 ATARI 800, WHICH IS ALMOST A SELECTRIC CLONE AS FAR AS KEY PLACEMENT AND 191 SIZE. I'M NOT SAYING I PREFER THE ATARI COMPUTER TO THE IBM, JUST THE 192 GENERAL ARRANGEMENT ( THEY COULD HAVE INCLUDED A TEN-KEY PAD THOUGH ). 193 YES, THE CHARACTER IN THAT CLASSIC MOVIE "DR. STRANGELOVE" PLAYED BY 194 KEENAN WYNN WAS COL. BATGUANO. WAS HE THE ORIGIN OF YOUR NAME, BATPOOP? 195 196 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM![][][][][][] 197 ALAS, I DIDN'T THINK OF IT FIRST. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT TILL NOW, HOWEVER. I 198 COULD EASILY BE GUITY OF UNCONCIOUS PLAGIARISM, THOUGH, IF THERE IS SUCH A 199 THING. I'VE SEEN THE MOVIE AT LEAST 4 TIMES, MAYBE MORE. MAYBE I SHOULD 200 CHANGE THE NAME NOW THAT IT TURNS OUT NOT TO BE AN ORIGINAL. SUGGESTIONS? 201 202 ONE THING WE GAVE LOCKHEED WAS NATIONAL BUREAU OF STANDARDS DATA BASES. 203 THE NATIONAL B OF S IS AN OLD DEPARTMENT GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBLE FOR A 204 SURPRISING AMOUNT OF BASIC RESEARCH. THEY DO MANY THINGS LIKE FINDING 205 MELTING POINTS OF SUBSTANCES, HEATS OF SOLUTION FOR SALTS, ATOMIC CLOCKS, 206 AND ALSO A GOOD DEAL OF RESEARCH THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH STANDARDS 207 AND TABLES OF DATA. THEY HAVE DATA BASES IN SEVERAL HUNDRED FIELDS. NOW 208 HAVING PAID FOR THIS ALREADY IT WOULD BE NICE IF I COULD DIAL IT UP ON 209 MY COMPUTER FOR A REASONABLE FEE. THERE ARE MILLIONS OF STUDENTS, 210 PRIVATE RESEARCHERS, SMALL BUSINESSES, FARMERS, ETC WHO COULD REALLY USE 211 THIS STUFF. WE COULD REALLY USE SOME COMPETITION IN MORE FIELDS THAN 212 JUST COMPUTERS (AMONG THE HIGH TECH FIELDS). I KNOW THERE ARE SOME OTHERS, 213 BUT YOU KNOW THEY ARE FAR BETWEEN. BUT ASIDE FROM HAVING 'GOOD' REASONS TO 214 WANT THE DATA, WE ALREADY PAID FOR IT !!!! 215 216 A LOT OF OTHER GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS ARE PARTICIPATING IN THIS SCAM. I SAY 217 THAT HAVING THE BASIC RESEARCH DATA THAT IS AT THE HEART OF OUR PROSPECTS 218 FOR THE FUTURE RIPPED OFF IN THIS MANNER IS BOUND TO SERIOUSLY AFFECT 219 OUR ECONOMY. SONY, SIEMANS A.G. OR THE SOVIET EMBASSY CAN GET THIS INFO 220 EASIER THAN A SMALL BUSINESSMAN (THAT IS, THEY CAN AFFORD IT). AND THE 221 SMALL BUSINESS PERSON IS THE ONE WHO CREATES ALL THE GROWTH AND NEW JOBS, 222 NOT THE LARGE CORPORATIONS, WHO ACTUALLY ELIMINATE JOBS ( ALONG WITH 223 CREATIVITY AND SOME OTHER THINGS WE CAN GO INTO LATER ). AND THE WORST 224 THING ABOUT IT IS THAT THESE DEALS ARE PUBLISHED OPENLY, LIKE IN 225 COMPUTERWORLD, AND NO-ONE SEES ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT AT ALL EXCEPT 226 MAYBE A FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO DO INDEPENDENT WORK 227 IN HIGH TECH OUTSIDE THE BIG CORPORATIONS AND GOVERNMENT. THIS IS AN 228 EXTENSION OF A BIGGER IS BETTER PHILOSOPHY IN R&D THAT HAS SEEN THE 229 DROP IN PATENT ISSUANCE IN RECENT YEARS TO HALF OF FORMER LEVELS. AND 230 MANY OF THE PATENTS GRANTED NOW IN THE U.S. ARE JUST PATENTS BEING 231 GRANTED FOR FOREIGN COMPANIES FOR WORK DONE ELSEWHERE. 232 ))))))))))))))))))))BATPOOP, OF THE UNCERTAIN DERIVATION+++++++++++++++++++++ 233 Again, the idea of prior restraint in our penal institutions is not new, 234 in fact the most common reason given for punishment is deterrence. We have 235 many laws whose only purpose is to prevent crimes, but we have no coherent 236 crime prevention system. In fact, since our prisons have not proven to have 237 much if any rehabilitation value, their only use is deterence. Some crimes 238 are effectively planning another crime (conspiracy, for example, or what is 239 called assault, since that is not battery but threat) it is legally correct 240 to nab someone for planning certain crimes. like overthrowing the government 241 Admittedly we can't read minds, so we can't get at much planned crime, but 242 by removing repeaters from circulation we can reduce crime. Much research 243 has been done on the psychology of crime, so using this we can get some 244 indication if a suspect is likely to commit crimes; the use of so-called 245 experts is meaningless, since their record has been much worse than the 246 estimates of the police. simple statistics on crimes should be sufficient. 247 Most of us do admittedly commit crimes, but inadvertenly (who can know all 248 the laws?), and intentionally (if you obeyed the speed limit on the freeway 249 you would be risking more than a ticket) but laws are a part of social 250 behavior so inappropriate laws are ignored. Simply making the laws 251 enforceable would help, such as the European method of making the owner of a 252 car responsible for it's use. (They put automatic speed detectors with 253 cameras where they can spot speeders, and you are held responsible for s 254 your car's driver speeding) In order to get a license to drive we take a 255 test of our basic knowlege of some traffic laws and our ability to operate 256 a car. As it is well known that most "accidents" are caused by the same few 257 drivers, and that these few show distinct psychological aberrations, and 258 also kill people, I think it quite correct to require some sort of 259 standardized test for this also (it could be part of the driving test, as 260 one of the traits is tailgating). The idea that premeditated murder is worse 261 than a crime of passion is totally wacko; it means don't think about the 262 effects of your actions, that could get you in jail. 263 On free databases: who will pay for it? The cost of the data is one thing, 264 but the cost of accessing it is another. Compuserve is cheap in the evenings 265 because it is paid for during the day, by business users. If we could get 266 dialog to do the same, then we must pay for the phone lines (or eqivalent) 267 to access it, still expensive but more practical. The almost total lack 268 of competit1on in this field may say something about how easy it is to get 269 into. One databas1 I would like to see, though, is our laws. Lawyers have 270 access to several databases on this, as well as the court's interpretations, 271 and since we must abide by laws as the courts read them, we should be able 272 to know what this is. I don't think a lawyer should be needed to tell us 273 what is legal. Of course the lawyers won't like us poking around in their 274 private preserve, especially when we could see how badly they handle it. 275 Enough///////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 276 As to keyboards, how about one quick wish? Make them easily redefinable by 277 he user. Put LCD displays on the keys so you could see what you did to them, 278 and when you log on the computer would set up the keyboard to match your 279 logon file. If you like dvor-what's-his-name you got it; it would even allow 280 QWERTY. 281 /////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 282 DOM: I don't mean some my comments regarding 0/0 to be SERIOUS. 283 However your slope example is what first made me realize that n/0 284 & 0/0 could have meanings other than "undefined". Note: I didn't 285 say they were PRACTICAL meanings, just meanings. Obviously, the 286 vertical line has infinite slope - thus n/0 = "infinity". Now 287 consider the set of real numbers n as being the set of solutions 288 of equations of the form n=y/x. ALL of the lines pass thru (0,0). 289 This lack of a single (or even of any FINITE number of) answer is 290 why 0/0 is undefined. n/0 is undefined because of all the fun 291 things that occur in the mathematics of transfinites. Aleph null 292 (sorry my terminal only supports greek & kata kana, NOT hebrew!) 293 +n = aleph null. Replace the "+" with any other operation and you 294 won't have to change the answer! This could get VERY inconvenient 295 in a bookkeeping program. 296 I think that most floating point representations have 297 a few "illegal" or ignored bit patterns that could be used to code 298 for some of these strange answers (as an example, I believe that 299 in most Microsoft BASICs a zero exponent means the number is 0! 300 Since the mantissa isn't being checked, what if we did & if it 301 was 0 then ok then answer is 0, otherwise it is .....) 302 Most of my examples (of /0 & 0/0) are things where I 303 was kind of suprised to find out that the "real world" & the 304 formulas would still give answers under the "undefined" conditions. 305 I admit that the answers aren't very USEFUL, but my "interpretation" 306 of the undefined conditions, sometimes will tell you what to expect. 307 I think this is "better" than "you can't DO that", if only 308 because it lets you understand why "you SHOULDN'T do that". 309 Since you appear to have a fair knowledge of math, maybe 310 you can answer a couple of questions for me? My math (College 311 Algebra ie Math 101, Logic, & a little Boolean Algebra, pre-Calc 312 etc) isn't quite up to these. 313 1. What is the square root of "i" (ie SQR(SQR(-1)) )? 314 2. How did they determine that i^i=e^(-.5*pi) 315 (the above values both work out to a small real number that 316 I'm too lazy to look up in the CRC tables) 317 For #1 my main question is: is the result a member of the set of 318 complex numbers, or do we need "hyper-complex" numbers? On #2 319 I suspect that the answer is VERY involved, so I would understand 320 if you referred me to a book (hopefully, something I can understand 321 if not, I may ask for an explanation of the explanation!) 322 323 To: ANYBODY 324 Is it possible to take math classes (& maybe a few physics 325 & chem classes) at any of the universities or colleges around 326 Portland, WITHOUT working toward a degree or having to take 327 "irrelevant" classes as prerequisites at some point? I would 328 be taking only 1 or 2 classes a term, & only to LEARN. Thus, I 329 don't want to be told: I'm sorry, you can't take CS 207 unless 330 you have taken Eng 105 and ..... I can see why they do this 331 if you are going for a degree, but.. 332 333 To:BATPOOP 334 "if the Foo shits, wear it" 335 _____________________________Leonard__________________________ 336 **************** 337 In regards to the issue of putting criminals in jail before they commit crimes; 338 there are a couple of criminal offenses that apply: Attempt and Conspiracy. 339 Both require that a substancial step be taken towards the commission of the 340 crime. Conspiracy also requires that more than one person be involved. The 341 attempt charge is usually used as a plea bargining tool as the penalty is less 342 than the actual crime itself. Conspiracy is rarely used as it is extremely 343 difficult to prove, people don't plan criminal acts in public. If you want to 344 go further than that, then you'll have to overcome one obstacle--the US Comstitution. 345 It may be outdated and vague in places, but it's all we've got at the moment. 346 I'd be loathe to give it up unless I see something better. 347 As for testing driver's to see whether they have the right attitude before they 348 are given a license...FAT CHANCE! How many driver's are on the road with their 349 licenses suspended for bad driving records, drunk driving, manslaughter, etc.? 350 Just because the state has told someone that they can't drive because they aren't 351 a good driver, doesn't mean they won't drive...They could care less. The penalties 352 are very stiff in this state for Driving While Suspended: A Misdemeanor in some 353 cases and a C Felony if your license is suspended for drunk driving or some other 354 major traffic crime...The real problem as I see it is that many judges refuse 355 to lock up offenders so they won't hurt someone else; and the judges that would 356 like to can't because the jails are too full. Another solution is needed, I 357 just haven't figured out what it is... 358 Michael 359 ******************* 360 361 NO, THE ABOVE IS NOT ME. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT I SIGN AS SHOWN HERE: 362 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 19 SEPT 83 ****** 2:30PM ****************** 363 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 364 TO LEONARD... 365 As per your question about taking classes at local schools without going towards a degree... 366 I have taken classes at PSU and at Mt. Hood CC. Both schools, especially PSU, require, 367 for some classes, prerequisites to get it. They have to do this because of the limited number 368 of sections of a given class. Students in a certain degree program must be giuven the priority 369 to get into classes that they need to satisfy their degree requirements. In most of the cases 370 I have seen, if there is room left in a class, they will let you in. They don't keep people out because they are mean, its 371 just the fact that they don't have the money to staff more teachers and have more sections. 372 I won't start that debate up again, but I know where you are coming from. It is fun, or would be fun, to take 373 classes just to learn, instead of always having to worry about the fact that this class isn't in the program, or 374 I have to have taken basket weaving 102 before I can get into basket weaving 200. There are alot of neat classes you can take 375 just for 'fun' at both schools. Check out MHCC night classes and PSU's Departmment of continuing Education, or DCE for short. 376 They both offer the type of things you are looking for. I have not mentioned PCC, but 377 I imagine they have some sort of extension classes or similar offerings. I wish you 378 luck in your endevors! I have learned a lot in school, and I have been very happy with 379 my professors at both PSU and MHCC. Have fun...and remember, school starts up at both PSU and MHCC September 26th. In case 380 you don't know who this is, I'll just sign my name as the 'Null' man... 381 382 ////////////////////// 383 Someone above wanted to know what sqrt (i) is. Dredging up some answers 384 from the depths of my brain, I get: (1+i)/(sqrt 2). I think. It has been a long 385 time since calculus, etc. As for the second question, I GIVE UP! Imaginary 386 exponents give me the willies. 387 ------------------------------------------------P. V. Jeltz-------------------- 388 389 10 i am trying to figure this out 390 501 you should be more explicite on how to write a message on this system scott huotari 391 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 19 Sep 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 392 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 21:21 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 393 When a voice calls and is not heard, it is as if a cold fog blows 394 into the Inn and transforms it...the roar of voices tangled in conversation 395 changes to a tinnily-distant sound, a sound as inviting as a the din of 396 televisions on display in a department store...and to the eyes of the 397 girl in the corner, the Inn becomes a grey and empty room, and only the 398 dust shimmers from the exhalation of the one thus abandoned. 399 Broken Heart, ever you read me wrong! Tell me your true name, and 400 let us speak of more than mournful dirges over what is lost. 401 A humble thanks to those who defended my offerings to the Backwater 402 Inn, many days ago: I wish that I had been able to convey the delight 403 that I felt when I briefly glimpsed the rallying of my friends against 404 the stranger who took an unfriendly swing at me...and these words seem 405 quite inadequate to express the smile that danced on my face that day--! 406 I, as a would-be artist, can find some fulfillment in just expressing 407 myself succintly, but the *joy* of writing comes from the inadvertantly- 408 earned appreciation and respect that is expressed by others. 409 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 410 DEAR BAD - WHAT ABOUT THE RATIOS OF BLACKS - DO YOU GIVE UP - GUESS YOU 411 DON'T HAVE THE GUTS TO CONFRONT US WITH WHAT YOU REALLY MEAN - OR TO 412 SAY YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT SOMETHING - AND HOW ABOUT THE ISSUE OF TOTALITA- 413 RIANISM - CAN'T GET A PEEP OUT OF YOU ON THESE CAN I. I SEE YOU STILL 414 WANT TO CLAIM SOME SHRED OF RESPECTABILITY FOR YOUR IMPOVERISHED ANTI- 415 SOCIAL ATTITUDES, THOUGH. THIS IS AN ANONYMOUS FORUM, THOUGH. WHY DON'T 416 YOU GO AHEAD AND SAY WHATEVERS ON YOUR MIND. THIS LAST MISSIVE OF YOURS 417 IS HELD TOGETHER WITH HOG GREASE. ALMOST EVERY SENTENCE CONTAINS SOME 418 FLAW OF THOUGHT, SO IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO NOTE THEM ALL WITHOUT TAKING UP 419 THE REST OF THIS DISK, BUT HOW ABOUT THIS: 420 421 IN SENTENCE ONE YOU CONFUSE THE IDEAS OF PRIOR RESTRAINT AND DETERRENCE THROUGH 422 PUNISHMENT. THESE ARE NOT THE SAME. 423 IN SENTENCE TWO, YOU NOTE THAT WE HAVE MANY LAWS WHOSE ONLY PURPOSE IS TO 424 PREVENT CRIMES.... ETC. WELL, ALL LAWS ARE DESIGNED TO PREVENT UNDESIRABLE 425 ACTS, NOTE *ACTS*. THE FACT THAT THERE IS A LAW IS WHAT DEFINES WHAT IS A 426 CRIME. WHAT YOU ARE GETTING AT IS THAT THERE IS A MUCH DISPUTED AREA OF 427 LAW INVOLVING CONSPIRACY. THIS AREA IS CONTROVERSIAL ENOUGH AS FAR AS IT 428 HAS GONE - IT MAKES A BAD FOUNDATION FOR THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE 429 LOCKED UP FOR THEIR BAD INTENTIONS, PREDELICTIONS, OR FANTASIES. 430 431 THE MAIN SUBSTANCE OF YOUR ARGUMENT SEEMS TO REST ON TWO IDEAS: 432 A: THAT WE CURRENTLY ARE ABLE TO PREDICT IMMINANT CRIMINAL BEHAVIOUR, AND 433 THAT THERE ARE CRIMINAL EXPERTS THAT CAN DO THIS WITH RELIABILITY - 434 THIS IS JUST NOT SO FOR MOST CRIMES. RECENTLY A MAN IN A PSYCHIATRIC 435 HOSPITAL WITH A CRIMINAL RECORD WAS SENT HOME BY HIS DOCTOR, A 436 PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCED WITH CRIMINAL PSYCHOTICS. HE KILLED HIS 437 WIFE AND CHILDREN BEFORE KILLING HIMSELF. ANY PERSON IN THIS FIELD 438 WILL TELL YOU THAT MURDER CAN NOT BE PREDICTED ON A PSYCHOLOGICAL 439 BASIS. 440 B: THAT WHOEVER IS RUNNING THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE IN PERFECT AGREEMENT 441 WITH YOU ABOUT WHAT INFRACTIONS ARE SERIOUS AND WHICH ARE NOT. HOW 442 PERFECTLY GOOFY AN IDEA! IF SOMEBODY DIDN'T WANT TO PUNISH YOU FOR 443 THE CRIMINAL ACTIVITY OF YOURS THAT YOU CONSIDER NOT SERIOUS, PUNISHING 444 ONLY OTHER PEOPLE FOR THEIR 'REAL' CRIMES, THOSE LAWS WOULDN'T BE ON 445 THE BOOKS. THE FACILE WAY YOU HAVE OF EXCUSING LIFE ENDANGERING 446 SPEEDING ON THE FREEWAY IS QUITE LIKE THE SORT OF EXCUSES OTHER 447 CRIMINALS PRESENT FOR THEIR CRIMES. THEY SIMPLY SAY THAT IT DOESN'T 448 REALLY MATTER, FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER. THE FACT IS YOU NEVER KNOW 449 WHAT THE BALLOON HEADS WHO RUN MOST GOVERNMENTS ARE GOING TO COME UP 450 WITH IF YOU DISMISS THE BILL OF RIGHTS - WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE TRYING 451 TO DO, THOUGH I SUSPECT YOU HAVEN'T READ IT LATELY. 452 453 MOST OF YOUR METHODOLOGY FOR CATCHING THESE OFFENDERS-TO-BE BEFORE THE ACT 454 HAS TO DO WITH ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT CLASSES OF PEOPLE - BUT WE WILL, IN YOUR 455 SCENARIO, BE LOCKING UP INDIVIDUALS. FURTHER, YOU STATE THAT PRISONS DO 456 NOT WORK FOR ACTUAL OFFENDERS. HOW THEN CAN THEY DO SOME GOOD FOR POTENTIAL 457 OFFENDERS. WHAT WOULD BE THE OUTCOME IF I LOCKED YOU UP NOW FOR INTENDING 458 TO SPEED? HOW LONG SHOULD I KEEP YOU? OR SHOULD I SHOOT YOU, OR PERHAPS 459 LOBOTOMISE YOU? SPEEDERS AND DRUNK DRIVERS KILL ABOUT AS MANY PEOPLE A 460 YEAR IN THIS COUNTRY AS MURDERERS DO. SO IT'S JUST AS SERIOUS. HAVING 461 WORKED IN HOSPITAL E.R.'S A BIT, I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE OUTCOMES ARE 462 QUITE SIMILAR. MAYBE YOU SHOULD THINK BEFORE YOU LET US DO WHATEVER WE 463 WANT TO YOU. 464 465 I THINK THAT BEFORE YOU WRITE OFF THE PRISON SYSTEM, YOU OUGHT TO MEDITATE 466 ON THE FACT THAT WHEN A JUDGE HERE RECENTLY FORCED THE STATE TO RELEASE 467 A LARGE PERCENT OF STATE INMATES, THE CRIME RATE JUMPED 75% THE NEXT MONTH. 468 IT IS NOT THAT PUNISHMENT AS WE CURRENTLY PRACTICE IT DOESN'T WORK - IT 469 IS THAT WE DON'T PRACTICE IT ENOUGH. WE LET PEOPLE OFF WITH LIGHT SENTENCES 470 WHO ARE MULTIPLE OFFENDERS BECAUSE OF LACK OF PRISON SPACE. MOST OF OUR PRISONS 471 WERE BUILT WHEN THE POPULATION WAS A FRACTION OF WHAT IT IS TODAY. AND 472 DETERRENCE HAS TWO ASPECTS - CONVINCING PEOPLE TO STAY HONEST IS ONE, BUT 473 THE OTHER IS PUTTING CRIMINALS WHERE THEY CAN'T GET TO THE REST OF US. IT 474 IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE MOST REPEAT CRIMINALS UNDER LOCK AND KEY, BUT WE DON'T 475 DO IT. 476 477 SO: LETS LOCK CRIMINALS UP, FOR SURE. AFTER THEY ARE CONVICTED. AND LETS 478 BE WILLING TO PAY THE TAXES THAT THIS ENTAILS. WHILE THIS IS GOING ON, 479 LETS NOT GIVE THE GOVERNMENT ANY EXCUSES TO LOCK US UP ON SUSPICION, 480 OR ANYBODY WHO SAYS 'THE KING IS A FINK' WILL BE IN THE HOOSEGOW FOR 481 GOOD, OR WORSE. UNLESS, OF COURSE, YOU TRUST ALL POLITICIANS AND 482 COPS AND LAWYERS TO BE BETTER THAN OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, ALL THE TIME. 483 ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))COLONEL BATGUANO++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 486 487 **************** 488 Mikey: Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression the above message about 489 criminals was yours, that just happens to be my name. 490 As for the crime/criminals issue; criminologists have come up with four basic 491 reasons for locking people up: 492 1. Punishment - All this does is make the victims feel a little better and 493 satisfy our sense of morality. 494 2. Deterrance - The threat of prison rarely deters the hardcore crook. He knows 495 that he's not going to spend the full time in the joint anyway with early release 496 probation and parole. Also many repeat offenders become institutionalized to the 497 point that they want to get back into prison as soon as possible. 498 3. Rehabilitation - studies have shown that rehabilitation has little if any 499 effect on whether or not an individual will become a repeat offender. In fact, 500 the only thing that seems to have a bearing is the age of the individual. The 501 older one becomes, the less likely he is to become a repeat offender. 502 4. Locking up the crook to keep him of the streets - As Bat pointed out this is 503 the only real effect on the crime rate. If the crook isn't out on the street 504 he won't be victimizing someone. And as he gets older his chances of repeated 505 offenses decreases. 506 So, I guess the only way to really reduce the crime rate is to make sure crooks 507 spend their full time in jail. Halfway houses, probation, parole, job training, etc., 508 really don't help that much. That sounds hard-nosed, but short of lobotomies 509 or a return to capital punishment for stealing a loaf of bread, it's the only 510 viable alternative that I can see. 511 Michael 512 ***************** 513 514 Michael, no problem, it is only that your name being the same as mine and 515 the boarder you use gave rise to a few users thinking that you were me. Which 516 is natural enough considering all the simularities. Ah well... 517 ****** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 20 SEPT 83 ******* 8:27 AM ********************* 518 ********************************************************************** 519 As the Innkeeper returns from a long nights outing he finds a whisper 520 still echoing thru the Inn. Come do not leave without speaking with 521 the other patrons, for many have asked of you. Most notibly PAM and 522 Aaron. Your voice is always most welcome here for it brings happiness 523 and joy to the patrons of this fair Inn. Come and sit with these fair 524 people and chat for a while most gracious Lady of Dragons. 525 ******** CISTOP MIKEY ******* 8:38AM ******* 20 SEPT 83 ************** 526 527 TO: BATDODO 528 WELL, I WOULD SAY IF THAT DOESN'T GET SOMEONE MAD AT YOU, I DON'T KNOW 529 WHAT WILL! 530 BY THE WAY, IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED, EVEN THE SCIENTIST HAVE THEIR OWN 531 IDEAS ABOUT CRIMINALS AND HOW TO DETECT AND STOP THEM. IT HAS TO DO WITH 532 LOOKING FOR TRACE METALS IN THE HAIR. IT SEEMS THAT THOSE WHO COMMIT 533 ACTS OF AGRESSION EITHER HAVE AN EXCESS OR LACK OF CERTAIN METALS IN 534 THEIR BODIES AS DETERMINED BY LOOKING AT HAIR SAMPLES. WHILE THOSE THAT 535 DON'T COMMIT ACTS OF AGRESSION HAVE A NORMAL AMOUNT OF THESE METALS. 536 SCIENCE NEWS 8/20/83 PG 122 AND 9/10/83 PG 173. NOW THERE IS A INTERESTING 537 AND SICKENING THOUGHT. YOU GOT TO MUCH COBALT IN YOU, SO WE ARE LOCKING 538 YOU UP AND THROWING AWAY THE KEY. WORSE YET, THERE IS TALK OF TESTING 539 CHILDREN TO SEE IF THEY QUALIFY. WONDERFUL, JUST THE SORT OF THING TO 540 TELL THEM, "YOUR GOING TO LEAD A LIFE OF CRIME". OF COURSE ALL THIS IS 541 GREAT FOR THE PEOPLE COMMITING THE ACTS OF VIOLENCE, "SEE, IT'S NOT MY 542 FAULT, THE METAL MADE ME DO IT!" YEAH, RIGHT... FLIP WILSON YOU AIN'T. 543 ******* CISTOP MIKEY VERY SCEPTICAL ******* 20 SEPT 83 ******************* 544 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 21 Sep 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 545 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 21:19 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 546 Of what would you have me speak, dear Innkeeper? I hesitate to leap 547 into the conversations flying past, for many that start in a bantering 548 tone seem to run amok, and become 'slash ego' contests. 549 My visits have been infrequent because of the long path of darkness 550 that awaits me once I leave these lands, and thus I may have missed some 551 responses--? Tell me, please, O Innkeeper, of these voices that called 552 my name, for I did not hear; and I am eager to reply! 553 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 554 ****************************************************** 555 Ah dear lady, the ones of note are the faithfull Aaron who has called 556 your name serveral times and found no answer. PAM as well a most 557 sesioned traveler has expressed loss at no longer hearing the words 558 that pass thru your fingers. 559 And, sigh.. Even I do miss your thoughts and words as they flow thru 560 this Inn crowded though it is at times like these. 561 But hark! Do you not see that it changes yet again? For the night of 562 the egos is closing fast. Perhaps a new decore can be added to the Inn. 563 ****** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 22 SEPT 83 ******** 9:34PM ***************