ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ³ The Fidonet HOLYSMOKE Frequently Asked Questions List ³ ³ Created by David Rice ³±± ³ Updated, maintained and posted by C. J. Henshaw and Coridon Henshaw ³±± ³ Last Revised 06 Apr 11995 - Revision 666.012 - Hail Satan! ³±± ³ ³±± ³ Compilation Copyright 1995 Coridon Henshaw. All rights reserved. ³±± ³ Individual quotations remain the property of their respective owners.³±± ³ Free license for intra-HOLYSMOKE duplication and distribution. ³±± ³ DUPLICATION OR DISCLOSURE TO NON-HOLYSMOKE PARTICIPENTS PROHIBITED. ³±± ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ±± ±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±± Comments from the FAQ keepers: The two ones in the header are not a typo. The copyright isn't a joke; I don't want to have drooling fundies at my door because of this document. Before anyone asks, no, I didn't get a batch of really old mail for all these additional quotes. They've been sitting in my 'Add to FAQ' file (yes, that's the filename) since the begining of March. Disclaimers: This product warps space and time in it's temporal and spacial location. Do not expose to antimatter. Will not block gunfire. Do not ignite. Do not eat. Definitions of words may vary. Quote of the issue: "Welcome to Holysmoke. That is probably the last nice thing I will ever say to you. Such is life." - George Rudzinski Quotes: "Welcome to the lovely world of HolySmoke! Watch out! The sugar-coating you now wear will probably wear off before long. It doesn't take very long, here. We're the Comet Cleanser of religion." - Questor Thews "We're not here to discuss religion, we're here to be disgusted by it." - Gwen "Gwenny the Pooh" Todd "Some parents, primarily fundamentalist Christians, would like the schools to teach their particular moral values. Those values are not necessarily shared by everyone." - D Mc Intire (talk.origins) "Wrong! I'm the fucking antichrist. Bow down slave!" - Ryan Shaw "You must suffer from some unknown mental condition, Andy. Throughout your posts you seem to equate liberalism with people who you consider "evolutionists[sic]." Liberalism, and conservatism for that matter are both political theories and have very little to do with whether or not one is considered an "evolutionist[sic]" by you. Wait, on the other hand most dumbass rednecks seem to be conservative. Shit, I take that back. Even a redneck isn't that stupid." -RS "I feel sorry for you, 'cause when the END comes, you are going to be one of those crying for the rocks and mountains to fall on you to hide you from God's glory. You will finally fall on your face and worship the One that created ALL, and then you will not have a chance. A carpenter was not elected as God, not by anyone of this world. You will know, one day that God wanted you to follow Him and THEN it will be too late. I have pity for you, for as you are speaking now, you are lost. You can believe whatever you want to, God gave you that choice, and you choose to follow the devil. May God have mercy on your soul." - Greg Waggy "If you are from an area where gays aren't bashed you wont be afraid to experiment if you want." - Jeff Androsac "YOU AREN'T BORN GAY!!! I DON'T CARE WHAT HOMOSEXUALS SAY, THEY CHOOSE TO BE GAY. AND THEY MADE THE WRONG CHOICE, SO HELL AWAITS THEM!" - JA "The Church is very tolerant, as is proven by God not sending a lightening bolt to fry those who blaspheme in the manner which the ULC does - particularly by taking something which God and millions of men hold sacred, and then attempting to make a joke of it, belittling it, and smearing it with every type of ridicule you can think of." - Fr. Lee Mc Colloster "It is nice to rember, when people are so foolish, one day soon every knee will bow and every mouth will confess Jesus as Lord!!!" - Hampie Mcdonald "A.I.D.S. was actually a GAY disease until the gay scum community infected the NORMAL world!" - Dale A. Cook [ed brain] "Key words: "we want". Instead of making demands, why not try working to those ends? Preferably without shotguns." - Marty Leipzig "Coming from a person who can see through a keyhole with both eyes open, I just consider the source." - ML "I think you're anti-science, anti-intellect and anti-logic. The mere fact that you're a Xtian to boot really does nothing other than label you with the type of superstition with which you feel most comfortable." - ML "Read up on what you rant about; perhaps then you won't come across as such a blightered moron. Perhaps." - ML "Of course it just seems that way you to you as you dwell in that paranoid fetid martyred delusion you call a life. Judges and school administrators are there to protect the populace from the Neofascist, hate-mongering, right-wing, ignorance inculcating group of Fundamentalist liars who try to pawn off their own fallacious view of narrowly dogmatic, and hallucinatory, morality as science. Against that we must be ever vigilant. We cannot again allow the armies of the night, clad in their tawdry Bible passages and threadbare beliefs, to usurp what they can never attain justifiably; however they may lie, cheat or swindle." - ML "I interact just fine with fellow human beings. What has yet to be established is that you are human." - George Rudzinski "I have no problems with my self esteem. I don't need any imaginary friends to get me through life." - GR "Fundies are dazed and confused. Like a duck hit on the head." - GR "And nobody considers you to be stupid. You have shown that you are. No need to get pissed at us because you decide to demonstrate that you are stupid." - GR "So don't practice sex. The gene pool won't miss your participation." - GR "So me blowing your head off is okay? I'm beginning to see that such a wound wouldn't be fatal." - GR "Mark 16: 15-19. If you have the faith I have the cure." -GR "Well God don't talk to me. And until you cough up the chemical formula for the pills sitting on my monitor, God don't talk to you." - GR "Hardly. My heathen premise is that screwing my wife on a Sunday morning has top priority over wasting time listening to some snake-oil salesmen in what ever church you wish to pick." - GR "I so love to see Christians disagree. Why don't we lock the two of you in a room with a loaded gun and the Bible? And the one that walks out alive gets to be the "True" christian." - GR "When you are on fire, no matter how many times you scream you are not on fire, it doesn't put the flames out." - GR "I personally believe religion is a mind killer and the most evil thing that one man has ever foisted on another." - GR "Many religious people think I'm the anti-Christ. I guess that would qualify as an affiliation." - GR "I am compelled to reply to this discussion. As a Christian, I feel that people who are Gay or Lesbian are children of God, and that they like us are loved by God. There is no mention to my knowledlge in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that Homosexuality is accursed by God whatsoever. Therefore, there is no Moral position based on the Bible in Christianity which condemms it. True, there is no position either which blesses it as well. Homosexuality exit, it is neither good or bad, as these are our own values being imposed on it, and as such reflect our own fears or ignorance. For instance, in the last 30 years Blacks, and Women have achieved a level of equality unheard of centuries before, and what is more true is that taking away their advances is blasphemous, and unconiousable. Gay people are no different than you or I, they have families that care for them, they work and contribute to our society greatly. To deny them equal rights under the law, and morally, would be the same as stepping back into time when tyrants ran the world and people different from them were put to the sword. Any attack on Gay people is just plain homophobia, and disguising it as morally wrong because the Rev. Jerry Falwell(for example) condems it, is just plain stupidity. Gay people want acceptance and respect as citizens, brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers, friends, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I am glad that we live in a age when people are shaking off old irrational fears and bigotry, even though we have a long way to go before we can build a society, and world based on love and respect. I just hope I will see it in my lifetime." - John Oliver "I advocate the murder of no one. However, I _do_ advocate referring to an abortionist doctor as an infant murdering, satan-led monster, masquerading as a doctor of medicine. Reason: He is one." - "Lon S. Mabon" "Preston, you should know that when a person is saved (born again) they become a new person in Christ. New means you start from the beginning. As in Baby.." - David (2' 5") Cupp. "Argument from popularity. There was a time when a hundred percent of the world's population thought the world was flat (if they thought about it at all). Did the make the world flat? Hardly! It make a hundred percent of the people stupid, and nothing more." - Marilyn Burge "Take your bible banging and shove it where the sun don't shine. It is a farce and totally unnecessary to a worthwhile, virtuous life, if only you were adult enough to know it." - MB "This brings some strange mental images to mind. First we have Christ blowing a column of fire out of his ass like a Saturn V. And then we have the Virgin Mary strapped onto the side of a booster like the Space Shuttle." -J.J. Hitt "A flawed argument at best: an abusive parent who is only beating their children can point at the parent who is sexualy abusing their children and say that there is nothing wrong with their own actions because someone else is doing worse. The sexually abusive parent can point to the parent who kills their children. The parent who kills their children in turn can point to someone who has killed more children than they have. If you only compare yourself to the worst examples you can find, of course you will always come out smelling like a rose. Please try to say something a little less stupid in your next reply." - JJH "The fundies that come through here start out by trying to display an attitude of thoughtful discussion. When they find that their mythologies are systematically disassembled and found to _be_ myths, coupled with the friction specifically designed to remove their sugar coating, the actual Christian under said sugar coating is exposed. And you can guess what's under it. I couldn't begin to enumerate those who specifically stated that they wished they could be around to watch the hurtful, educated HolySmoke participants `burn in 'hell.'" - Fredric Rice "'I am saved.' From what? Having to think for yourself?" - FR "Are you just naked, or are you naked for Jesus?" -FR "It's rather like having Freedie Kruger babysit children. Or asking Pee Wee Herman to teach human sexuality. Or asking Jim Bakker to be treasurer of the United States. Or asking Jim Jones to look over the refreshments." - FR "To believe in something without reason, that is to say, without reasonable grounds, is superstition, whether it is a belief that a black cat crossing your path will bring you bad luck, or God may pass judgement over your soul and send you to Hell for your evils." -Michael Gothreau "FUCK YOU ATHEIST! WHEN I FIND OUT WHERE YOU LIVE, I'LL DRIVE A PITCHFORK THROUGH THAT EMPTY HEAD OF YOURS, YOU ARROGANT PIG! THE GOD OF ABRAHAM DOES NOT STRIKE YOU BY LIGHTENING. SO GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ATHEIST ANCIENT GREECE BOOK OF FALSE GODS, AND WAKE UP. WHEN YOU DIE, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL, AND ARE GOING TO PERMANENTLY SUFFER DOWN THERE. AND I'LL BE LAUGHING AT ALL THE ATHEIST BASTARDS IN THIS ECHO, WHEN I'M UP IN HEAVEN. THERE IS NO WAY OUT OF HELL, JUST A WAY IN. AND THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE HEADED! OH I SEE. ALABAMA? YOU BETTER WATCH OUT. EVERYONE FROM THE SOUTH IS GUILTY OF INCEST. I GUESS THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL! THE TERMINAL BBS? OH, I UNDERSTAND. YOU ARE TERMANILLY RETARTED, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE PRODUCT OF INCEST! HAVE A NICE DAY, LOSER BOY." - Christopher Calabrese [Christian family values] ">> Not at all. Creationism has never been wrong. Why don't you just hang a sign around your neck that says `STUPID'?" -Styx Allum (The Moderator) "Debunking religions based upon hot air... is why this echo exists. Exposing hot air, although it cannot be seen by the naked eye, is a simple matter of having a theist speak into a balloon. When you pop the balloon, there is no more substance than what was there before. (Other than perhaps some saliva. Some theists froth more than others.)" - SA "Omnipresence precludes any "separation from the body of Christ". One cannot escape omnipresence. Therefor, your god would also have to exist within Satan." - SA "My clue, is Christ is coming, soon. Where are you going to be, when he comes to take the believers, in Heaven or hell." - Marguerite Kendall "If I was a satanist, humanist, or an atheist, it would be no problem. But because I stand for Christ, I get jumped on, name called, etc. There have been posts, on satanism, and humanism. But nothing happens, to the person who posts those messages. That person gets praise heaped upon him. But when I posted something on christianisty, adverse reaction happen." - MK "Perhaps you would send some [newspaper articles] my way...yeah...I know it's like the rest of your life...one big circus of lies." - Ron Stringfellow "One thing at a time. Answer the question, godling." - RS "Peter, I know what pi r2 is and have since the beginning. . . and I am sure that god took that into account." - RS "Faith in yourself will not help when the problem is beyond your control." - Steve Bedard "This ain't the harmony echo, dipshit." - Robert Curry "If the theists all shut up, the gods would be speechless." - RC "Funny how the gods tend to share the Political views of those who speak for them." - RC "Creation 'Science' is to science what Rap 'Music' is to music: a lot of noise and utterly incoherent." - David Rice "It is like arguing with a lump of shit. The longer one argues with shit, the sillier one appears, and the shit ain't listening." - DR "In response to entreaties from around the world, the leadership of Iran has announced that it will deal with Salman Rushdie in a more Christian fashion. But they have to find a place for the stake where it won't set an oil well on fire." - DR (It's a JOKE, bozo) "Any god who was elected a god by majority vote, like Jesus, must have a severe identity crisis." - DR "Speed kills. Wrapping your automobile around a concrete bridge pylon probably voids the warrantee." - DR "I think Ms. [Linda "UN at Waco"] Thompson has some valid points. Honestly." - DR "You're one complete pile of shit, and a bigoted one, too. Even your god damnable bible says "created man in his own image". And you have the audacity to say that an innocent child does not have the right to be saved by your god damned god?" - Dan Ceppa "I predict that you will take a breath of fresh air and actually take another. Hey!!! Why the fuck are you turning blue on me???? Well, one less fundy to woryy about......" - DC "Mankind didn't progress as far as it has by saying, "God said that men can't fly" but by breaking those laws and flying. What is going on around us now is an attempt to do just the same thing that the Romans used xianity for: To keep people ignorant, ignorant as to who they really are and are far they can go." - DC "You're incapable of any rational response, so why start now?" - DC "Please don't apologize. It makes me want to taunt you a second time." - Shelby Sherman "We treat fundies and apologists with appropriat counseling in this forum - Up the side of the head with the lug wrench of truth." - SS "By-the-way, Mary is still a slut and your precious Jesus is long dead and rotted in the grave. I've profaned your Savior, now what do you intend to do about it?" - SS "Tell me, why does God need to prove himself? He is based on belief. You are to believe, not to question! God performs miracles every day." - Steve Lew "Let's face it, matters of spirituality have to do with the spirit, not the intellect." - Carl Schulz "This echo is abomination. This echo is also filled with those who will one day bend their knee to Jesus Christ and call him Lord, whether they like it or not! And to think how much fun I'm gonna have fun watching you say it." - Martin Riley "The fact that a Jewish hasid lived in the 1st century CE in the country of either Galilee or Judaea, was very charismatic, a little brilliant and a little looney is not in question." - Simon Ewins "If God is "infinite and eternal and the Creator of all" then God must be the creator of evil. Since God created evil, the concept of evil must have, at least, passed through his mind and, further, since "whatever is good is good because it is consistent with his mind" the reverse must also be true. That is, "whatever is evil is evil because it is consistent with his mind". This makes God directly responsible for all of the evil that exists since it was "created from his mind". This requires that evil itself must be "consistent with his mind". So, is the mind of god predominantly good or evil? The amount of evil in the world (according to Christian theology) far outweighs the amount of good. This would indicate that God created more evil than he did good. This would indicate that the "mind" of God is predominantly evil. Why would one wish to worship a God who's "mind" is mostly evil? More interesting, however, is your anthropomorphizing of god. You assign God a "mind". How do you know that God has a "mind"?" - SE "Is this the depth of your naivete, or do we have more to look forward to?" - SE "Jesus made claims that have been proven to be wrong... Mark 9:1, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 23:36, Luke 9:27, Matthew 24:21- 34, Matthew 10:23... all claiming foreknowledge of his return, all wrong. Gee, maybe he's dead." - SE "Lies are hard to keep straight in an era without sophisticated communications, it would seem." - SE "Are you looking to win the award for most stupid question? Setting aside for a moment that rocks are hard what would be the result of one dropping on your head? You can't 'set aside' an essential element of _anything_ and expect to find an answer that bears any relationship to reality." - SE "To accept as truth what the gospels (which were written after Paul's letters and were designed to support his ideas) say about Jesus, is to accept as truth what Goebbels says about Hitler. To accept as truth what Paul says about himself as supported by what the author of Acts says about Paul, is to accept what Hitler says about himself as supported by what Goebbels says about Hitler as truth." - SE "Christianity has nothing to be proud of. Any good that it may have done has been completely offset by the perpetuation of racial and religious hatred that it has fostered and encouraged." - SE "Paul only quotes Jesus twice. Why would that be if he is basing his entire theology on the life and work and resurrection of Jesus?" - SE "Anybody that brags about hearing voices in his/her head concerns me." - Steve Quarrella "We have no interest in "getting high" on your drugs, as our lives are just fine without having to be "saved" from the affliction you are selling. If getting high on Jesus is your bag, that's fine...so long as you do not ask others to inhale, we'll get along just fine. But if you tell people time and time again that they not only suffer from your affliction but also that they need your drug, you're going to be treated LIKE a drug dealer. You will be harassed to no end, cursed, spat upon, and every other inconvenience you can think of, until such a time that you take your drugs elsewhere." - SQ "God told me the Book of Mormon was true." - Conrad Knudson "Needless to say, the LDC's birth-rates are just rediculous... I'm for compulsary sterilization, muh-self." - Jeff Freeman "I missed being god by one vote!" - Odin "Ciya is a blasphemous tool of your cunning." - Jesse Jones "What you call a refusal to answer was a refusal to respond" - JJ "When we believe that our individual will is the superior force in the cosmos we deny the harmony which creation itself seeks. Jesus's struggle in Gesthemane shows us that there is a will to be served beyond our own self-interests. . ." - JJ "BUT... if I told you that 1+1=1, as idiotic as it seems, until I am proven wrong, I am right." - Zach Webb "Did you ever see 'Capricorn One,' the movie? O.J. Simpson was the star. Proved the entire government space program is a hoax. They're finally going after O.J. because he helped unmask the space hoax." - Charles Johnson, president of the Flat Earth Research Society International [Shamelessly snagged from Usenet] "My my, I have the false Christian scum (and their infidel, reprobate brethren), the Sodomites and the general filth of FidoNet all ganging up on me." - Steve Winter "Aids cures queers." - SW "I wish I was their to light the ovens." - William Stone "Do you imagine that sexuality began with mammals? Cockroaches are male and female, as you would notice if you paid any attention to your congregation." - Don Martin "And they're the ones who keep saying to us "why are you so ANGRY?" At least I am not so angry that I have to deny rights to other people out of hand." - DM "Fundies can only be secure in their faith when everybody agrees with their idiotic notions; therefore they feel impelled to convert whom they can and shoot the rest in the back." - DM "It isn't all that bad: they are only required to love their neighbor "as themselves". Given the degree of self-loathing we see demonstrated by christians around here (if it were not for the existence of god, I would be committing murder, arson and rape on a daily basis), they probably already love their neighbors as they do themselves without working up a sweat. That love, however, may leave something to be desired." - DM "Who ignores the likes of Paul Hill, a committed Christian "trying to make a difference"? Who ignores the various "Family" groups in Colorado and Oregon, busy trying to drum homosexuals out of the human race? They are certainly "trying to make a difference."Who ignores the Christians in Kentucky who check `naughty' books out of the library and do not return them? Who can deny that they are "trying to make a difference." Who ignores the friendly folks in Virginia, overwhelmingly Christians, who seek to place an admitted felon and perjurer, Oliver North, in the U.S. Senate where he can work his magic on all of us? Are they not "trying to make a difference." Who ignores the "stealth" candidates in California, who work at getting elected to school boards by concealing their Christian agenda by evasion, silence or outright lying, so that they can impose that agenda on the young from a position of power. They, too, are "trying to make a difference." I only wish we COULD ignore the Christians "trying to make a difference," but we dare not turn our backs on the vile bastards." - DM "Maggie's echo bombs of religious tracts probably violates the copyright of some fundy without giving such credit, but piss on him--it's only a fundy, after all." - DM "It has long been my impression that most of you buzzards would not bother to be christians if you did not suppose that heaven was composed of bleacher seats facing hell." - DM "But in India, something else is going on. Females are not valued. Only males are. Wanna bet that when those boys end up competing for the only unmarried girl in town that HER value won't soar? And theirs, at least so far as the gene pool is concerned, will drop. Such gender-specific abortion is an excellent way to reduce the overall population, but it doesn't really begin to operate until the next generation." - DM "I do not expect, of course, that my ridicule will make fundies think-- they appear to be pretty well proof against that horror--but it may have that effect on the real audience around here, the silent lurkers who have not yet given their minds over to the Swaggarts, Robertsons and Falwells." - DM "Certainly, and than am I: however, he specified "fundemental Christian", which DOES rather drain the pool of available intellect." -DM "Well for all of you who criticize Mr. Robertson, I can say this. Judge yourself before judging others. You might make fun of us fundies now, but we are mobilizing spiritually, politically, and to what worries you the most financially. We Christians are sick and tired of being accused of wrongdoing and ridiculed. Lets face it, there are more of us than you. And we intend to take back the Government that Christians founded. And cut off your grants that supply some of you with the money to wage war on us. Organizations like the Christian Coalition scare you and thats good cause We are going to put you and the evolutionist garbage you try to push on us on the run." - Joe Savelli "Okay. I'll retract the story about the man who was arrested for praying in the Florida restaurant. But only because you and others are hung up on it. This should clear the way for what I really want to prove. That is the Historicity of Jesus. So, Robert, you have my retraction for what it's worth. (Not that it's a lie.)" - JS "Oh well with homosexuals pounding on church doors and screaming to the occupants "we want your children, we want your children". It just proves my point that homosexuality is evil. Not to mention that it spreads disease...." - JS "Christian Coalitions membership in 1992 300,000. In 1993 900,000 and still growing. We are going to invade all political and educational institutions, take them back from the liberal/socialist invaders." -JS "Libralism and humanism IS evil. Both are destined to fail" -JS "I see now why Jesus said the Jews' father is the devil. Beware! The Jew is the antichrist." - Keith Baxter / Larry Rollins / Gerald Norris / Jack Roberts / Frank Waring "If 'Jesus' does come to Earth- is it the first coming (as per Jewish tradition), second (Xian), or third (Mormon)? I wonder- and I hope he lands feet first on ALL televangelists. (Preying on fear sickens me!!!)" - Rachael Roth "Take that piece of paranoid drivel and, print it out, soak it in gasoline, then shove it up your ass and light it. Have a nice day, motherfucker." - C. J. Henshaw "What you call senseless blathering is actually a very fun past time for those of us who like shoving lit fireworks up fundies' assholes." - Coridon Henshaw "Matt, do you suppose incest is why we have fundamentalists?" - Liz Saunders "We already have the necessary proof - the Scriptures. God has already told us what happened. Why do we need further proof?" - Derek Williams "What scares the shit out of me is that here in southern Tennessee (and probably many other areas) the psychological clinics are LINKING religious beliefs and psychological well-being. That's kind of like giving someone AIDS to cure sexual dysfunction." - Tim Bennett "EH> [...] Btw, change your initials. they make you look canadian." - Martin Goldberg "Texas is much better than the State of the Perpetually Dead Elvis. Jesus, the smell is atrocious. Did something die up there?" - MG "The Theory of Gravity does not address these either. Am I to believe that my computer will soon head for the ceiling?" - MG "i read this. It is full of nice stories, emotional bullshit, and a host of other devices that might fool a very stupid person. It is not, however, evidence." - MG "See you in Hell.... (I won't be there, but I'll be able to see YOU there.)" - Doug Brewer "Welfare is cancelled, all women come home (except single women who obviously must support themselves somehow.) What happens? 1) A tremendous amount of tax money is freed up. 2) Men fill the now vacant positions, thus reducing or possibly eliminating unemployment. 3) Children have one parent home all the time; thus they are raised by their parents instead of daycare. I think the advantages of this are obvious. In contrast, look at what we have instead...." - DB "You do not understand the essence of Satan, or of Satanism. You do not have to worship Satan to be a Satanist. Satanists believe that everyone is their own God. You need only worship yourself, and you are practicing Satanism." -DB "First of all, innocence is subjective. Who is truly innocent? Just a question... Second, anyone who ever died at God's hand (in the Bible) died for a reason. Third, Christians view death as a beginning, not an end. So, to die (say in a city that was destroyed by God's judgement) wouldn't pose that big a problem for me. There isn't that much worth hanging around here for, anyway." -DB "Modern technology is merely evidence that h. sapiens sapiens is not all irrevocably stupid and that progress is made in spite of our most earnest efforts to forestall it at times." - Preston Simpson "There's no convincing a mind that is not only closed but has been bricked over and had steel plate welded in place over it." - PS "Your god seems to fear questioning, and the authority figures in your religion discourage questioning far more than they encourage it. Such is a definite sign of an oppressive and dangerous organization." - PS "If you take two lions and two sheep aboard the ark, it's a cinch bet that the lions will probably eat the sheep or some other herbivore upon release." - PS "You've basically said to the world "I don't understand why some things happen, so God must have done it!" That's silly. If you don't know why something happened, try to find out. If you can't, leave it at that and go on with your life." -PS "I think you're full of shit. I wasn't in it for gain. I was in it because I believed. I was in it because I had faith. And when my faith was shaken to its foundation, nobody came to help, nobody answered my prayers, nothing. Your God, if he exists, is the most callous deity to ever be worshipped, bar none. And his followers exemplify this beautifully." - PS "We've explained it to you at least three times, in clear English. You claimed a degree in English; I suggest that you return to the institution that granted it and demand a refund, because it's for damned sure that you didn't learn anything there." - PS "How about people who just don't care? Bipolar thinking is ridiculous when applied in this fashion to humanity, since life is not always a clear-cut case of "us" against "them." Such thinking breeds paranoia, distrust, animosity, and all sorts of unharmonious things. What would your god think of that?" - PS "`In God we trust' - David Koresh" - Sunjester "Put THAT in your Bible and smoke it." - Stephen Green "I find it strangely pleasing to know my thoughts and actions cause you so much grief." - SG "Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting incest." - Jimmy Swaggart "Describe, if you will, what kind of phony God you would come up with if you were to create a phony God and start your own religion. Ask yourself what kind of traits you'd *have* to give it. Visible or invisible? etc. Then, compare the result to the popular Christian God." - Mike Prather "The problem is that some folks are so open minded that their brains fall out. Then some really bizaare ideas get stuffed into the opening, at which time they slam and bolt the barn door after the horse has run off, and never let anything else in or out. Then they come to Holysmoke and start posting stuff about universal minds thinking with pilot waves and dead presidents rising and orgasmic saviors and denying sunlight and quoting winos like Hoyle and Schroeder." - "Hector Plasmic" "He just reinterprets whatever's at hand to fit what he wants it to say, carefully discarding any bits that get in the way as "parables" and then reinterpreting them, too. Finally, ignore any more logical explanations and conflicting facts, and -- voila -- instant fundy, just add flood water and bake in hell to taste." - HP "It's laughable, really. The fundies claim "gods exist!" When you ask them if they have any evidence that gods exist, they eventually get around to saying "no, but you can _sense_ that gods exist." When you ask them for evidence for that statement, you usually get "I just know it." And when you ask them how it is they "just know" you usually get "you can _sense_ that gods exist."" - HP "I'm sorry, Mikey, did you run across some evidence that xtianity is true? Would you mind sharing it with us? Or are you just full of shit as usual?" - HP "Time: Here and now. Surviving members of David Koresh's Branch Davidians report seeing David the Koresh, Lamb of God, alive and preaching. They're widely regarded as nuts. The Enquirer and similar yellow tabloids pick up the tale and begin printing stories about people seeing the Koresh hither and yon performing miracles. The stories are widely regarded as garbage -- except for a few ignorant souls who also believe Elvis and JFK are still running around. A few years pass, the stories of Koresh sightings still crop up from time to time. Henry Kissinger has died, and John Prewett committed suicide rather than admit he was a false prophet. The Branch Davidians stick to their story, saying that the Koresh has ascended to heaven to be with God. They pick up followers. The church grows slowly but steadily. People still think they're nuts, but a few eyebrows are being raised. The fundamentalist xtian televangelists begin screaming about false prophets and followers of the devil when they mention the Koreshians. A few more years pass. Most of the Branch Davidians have died of old age. Their followers, still growing, set down the tales they've been told about the Koresh's sacrificial death to atone for the sins of mankind and subsequent resurrection and ascension to heaven and begin calling themselves Koreshians. A prominent televangelist who'd been preaching against the Koreshians is in an automobile accident; when he recovers, he claims to have seen the Koresh and been converted (saved). He tours the country preaching at Koreshian churches, howls his message over the airwaves. Membership in the Church of Koresh jumps sharply as many people leave the fundamentalist churches to become Koreshians. A few more years pass. The televangelist, now an old man, is assassinated. Membership again jumps sharply, spurred by his martyrdom. The stories set down years before are assembled and appended to the King James bible (oddly, written using "thee" and "thou"s). The stories contain contradictions and obvious fallacies, but they're accepted as dogma by the Koreshians, who interpret over them and/or call them "proof of the truth of the writings." Approximately two thousand years pass -- it's 1995 AK (After Koresh). The Koreshian religion is held, at least superficially, by 1/3rd of the world's 10 billion population (there'd be a lot more people, but the Koreshians exterminated a lot of heretics and unbelievers over a thousand years before during the Second Dark Age). Mikey Hardy's descendant says, in a room full of atheists, "And we have evidence that David Koresh rose from the dead." Most everyone present considers him a nut, and farts in his general direction. Mikey's descendant screams 'IS NOT!'" - HP "Moreover, according to the fundies here, we're guilty until "saved." So, to extend Kenny's "breaking the law" analogy, it'd need to be a law against breathing, or some other activity that humans can't help doing. In fact, I offer this analogy which seems much to the point: A king declared that anyone breathing air not bought from the king's air bottling plant would be thrown into the dungeon and tortured forever. The king offered simple terms -- all you had to do to pay for your bottles of air was fall to your knees, grovel a bit, and thank the king for giving you air (the king had previously allowed the president of the air bottling plant to rape and kill his daughter the princess to pay the price for everyone's air, but actually she wore a full-body condom and faked her death so she suffered very little if at all). Now, an atheist might say that the king was full of shit and was damning his people by the thousands for no reason at all, but a theist might say that the people were damning themselves by refusing to partake in the king's almost-freely-given gift of a bottle of air." - HP "We don't hate you, little fundy. We feel sorry for you." -HP "Occam's Razor cut your foot off again." -HP "Now go shoot yourself. For Christ or not, it doesn't matter. Don't forget to repent first." -HP "What an assinine, baseless assertion. Just because Mikey has no evidence, you must be intentionally refusing to believe him." -HP "Are you allergic to the truth or something, Mikey?" -HP "Fundy motto: no sense makes sense." -HP "Yep. I agree. All bibles should be put under rocks. Big rocks. In the ocean. On another planet." - Brian C. Kolacy "Women do have a place in God's kingdom...BELOW that of men." - Jeff Pruett "Back to the talking snakes and Adam & Eve again, eh Jeff? The entire story is pure mythology as you well know but won't admit. It has no more validity than the myths about Zeus, Hercules or Mithras." - John Musslewhite "So why don't you guys kill yourselves and get the hell outta our hair?" - David Worrell "I'm beginning to think Mormon churches have brain vacuums install in the pews. The congregation comes in, sits down, and tubes are inserted up their asses. Any unnecessary brain matter is then sucked out while they listen rapturously to the sermon." - DW "So you feel that it is our *duty* to bash gays in order to prevent `experimentation'? You disgust me. Maybe we should beat the hell out of Christians in order to prevent people from experimenting with Christianity?" - DW "I'm prejudiced against bigots, fascists, tyrants, and idiots. It just so happens that many Christians fall into one or more of these categories." - DW "I am all too willing to believe that you're just as stupid as you come across on this echo." - DW "Do you take groveling lessons or does it come naturally to you?" - DW "Atheism is MORALLY BANKRUPT because, as Sartre and Nietzsche have demonstrated, without God as the universal reference point to distinguish good from evil, there are no moral absolutes. Man becomes the measure of all things, including his own ethics and morality." - Roger Griffith "I agree with you there legislating faith is like trying to legislate agains racism it sounds nice but it just don't work..." - Robert Rice "God is Powerful...NO other so-called "GOD" could stand one chance against My Powerful God....Bite me All you LOw-Life Non-Christians!!" - Jason Bridges ">> WE AS CHRISTIANS HAVE GOTTEN AWAY FROM THE BASIC TRUTH OF CHRIST AND >> HAVE DEVELOPED OUR OWN THINKING. Great Scott! Some people are thinking for themselves. Where could such heretical behavior lead!" - Unknowns "What I'm doing is typing truth. It is simple to ridicule and ask for evidence of something someone does not believe, I could take the same tact. You cannot prove any theory, that's why they are known as theories. What you offer is not debate. Look the word up in the dictionary. I am here to say JESUS SAVES." - David Lewellyn "I do not hate anyone. I recognize homosexuality for what it is. It is an illness and depravity. At one time this was recognized as truth but as homosexuals were thrust into the public eye by the AIDS epidemic and the popular figures who came out of the closet, and the liberal climate created by the press, homosexuality was labeled an "alternative life style". It is "popularly believed" that a flight attendant from Canada introduced AIDS into the U.S. According to researchers he had sex with several dozen men. Other cases of AIDS did not show up until later among the non homosexual populace." -DL "No gay person could ever reproduce unless he were straight in some way." - Ralph "The sky is blue!" Jansen "Why can evolution be FACT when there is absolutely NOTHING backing it up? ... (Because this is science and in science there is no such thing as a fact.)" - RJ "If there is, then by definition evolution is most highly improbable since the each species is *supposed* to die off after it evolves." -RJ "As for 6000 years, there is quite a bit of evidence that supports that idea. So, maybe he really isn't that stupid. Maybe he knows something you don't." -RJ "Some group has said that they actually discovered the ark, and that NASA has gotten behind them on this 100%... Don't you dare quote me on that..." -RJ "I made a report to the class on Creation Vs. Evolution . . . You know who won . . . Creation . . . evlution is too complicated!!!" - Russ Offord [elipses in original] "The magnetic field. Solid hydrogen is a superconductor, and Earth's magnetic field continues to wane -- back then it would have been many, many times stronger. And so on." - Leon Brooks "You have no sense of humor. Typical atheist faire. Learn to live with it (your dark dismal world, that is, humorless, Godless, hellbound schnook)" - John Prewett "May Jesus continue to let you live. Long enough to get your head out of your ass." -JP "This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in Christ. There are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that are going to be transformed into rabid Christers. - JP "I predict / prophecy in Jesus name that: John F. Kennedy will publicly reappear, amaze the world, take world power, and is in fact the "beast" of the Revelation." - JP "Some HolySmokers are putting God on trial. Therefore God exist." - JP "`god' _does_ exist. Because the rules of physics always stay the same." - Matt Unterberg "I'm easily amused, just give me a gun and a field full of fundamentalists" - Unknown "(sorry about that - this is my blatant attempt to get a quote in the HOLYSMOKE.FAQ) " - Mike Perry "Actually, it is, Kelsey. Theistic evolution is not the same as atheistic-materialistic evolution. Yet, for some reason, you choose to use theistic evolution as a rebuttal to my statement that "natural atheistic-materialistic macro-evolution is dependant on life starting via a naturalistic-atheistic-materialistic mechanism for biochemical evolution." I'll explain the difference to you. Atheistic-materialistic evolution is characterized by the belief that there is no Creator G-d, that all that we observe in the universe is the result of the laws of nature acting on matter and energy, plus random and/or chance encounters of matter/energy, over a period of approximately 11-14 Billion years. In order for Atheistic-materialistic evolution to be true, each stage of the evolution of the universe (From the origin of the Big Bang, to the origin of particles, to the origin of stars and planets, to the origin of life from non-life, to the origin of the species) must have developed via the laws of nature acting on matter and energy, plus opportune random encounters of matter/energy, over a period of approximately 11-14 Billion years. If any any one of these stages we can demonstrate that just one of these steps could not have occurred in this manner, then we have disproved Atheistic-materialistic evolution. The Atheist world view falls apart." - Arthur Biele "Well, I'm 23, though I've had people mistake me for 30. It's my aura of wisdom and maturity, not my receding hairline. Really it is." - Aaron Boyden "No. However, there is life before death. It probably deserves more of your attention than you've been giving it." -AB "And you say I'm in a "death cult"?? "Mass starvation"?? Point "*.666"? You can't use "666", your an atheist, you don't believe in those things, remember?? Remember, the Bible isn't true, therefore the Anti-christ and his number 666 is a myth and doesn't exist? For someone who doesn't believe the Bible, you sure model yourself and your symbols after what's in it, even if it's the "bad guys". Of course the "bad guys" don't exist if the Bible isn't true." - Phillip Windell "You see, without God, a person can become good, or noteworthy, or famous, or do good things such as heal the sick, teach the ignorant, protect the young, and all for the simplest reasons or no reason at all other than the personal happiness derived from such actions. However, if there _is_ a God, then there is no reason to become a doctor, as God either wants that person sick or God would cure him. There is no reason to teach the ignorant, as with a snap of the fingers, God could impart any degree of knowledge or wisdom to that person and since that hasn't happened, God must want that person ignorant. If God does exist, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do anything for anyone. Anything you could do to help someone is meaningless as God could help them so much better if He wanted them to be helped. Anything you could do to better yourself becomes pointless as God could have done it for you if He wanted you to be a better person. Indeed, if God did exist, one could only do one of two things: either totally ignore God and any of His actions, or become a totally mindless slave to God's word. Either way, the result is the same: complete meaninglessness to anything and everything one does." - Kelsey Bjarnason "You seem to be very hot on what the Bible says; I find it hard to believe that anyone who cannot write a simple sentence correctly is actually capable of ascertaining the deeper meanings of anything more complex than a matchbook cover." - KB "One might look at how the Christians fare in here. Do you have any idea how often we have one come in and the first thing they do is start whining about the language in here? How would you like it if someone went to your house and told you how to speak there? Of course, the next step for the average Christian here is to start posting all the "great truths" which "prove God"; again, without having bothered to read enough mail to realize that _every_ argument they propose has been done to death already. No, they insist upon believing that in all of human history, they and they alone have the final proof of God. As often as not, the next stage is when they start defining terms to suit themseleves. "Atheism" means "anti-God". "Evolution" involves the Big Bang. And of course, they almost invariably end up resorting to such silliness as telling us that we "hate God" because we fear "it might be true" or that "deep in our hearts we know God is real". The point here is this: the Christians are treated with the respect they earn. For most, this means treating them like a spoiled and slightly retarded six-year-old. For the odd few, it means calm and rational discussion. It is _entirely_ up to the Christian how he is treated in HolySmoke." - KB "You go out of your way to insist that atheism is a religion, which can be for no purpose but to inflict your personal mindset on those who are not so afflicted." - KB "If you believe it, you don't know it. If you know it, you don't need to believe it. Since you obviously haven't a clue one way or the other, why should anyone listen to what you say?" - KB "They are Christians of Borg, they have been assimilated. They will speak no opinions of their own, only those approved by the Christian Borg Collective. To think for oneself is to risk eternal punishment." - Thomas Mccullock "No shit, Sherlock. But that isn't the case, and there are plenty (too many) heterosexual breeders in this world that are keeping this planet (over)populated. What does it matter if a small percentage of the world's population isn't reproducing? Goat knows we don't need any more people breeding like rabbits in this world..." - Drew Webber "Remember the man arrested in the Florida restaurant? He was praying that his noodles would stop multiplying, but a Satan-powered JFK flew out of the stratosphere on a bear that couldn't catch fish and arrested him. MISTER Kissinger stood on a milk crate of flaming foetuses and tried to prove it with every opening bud, but the solid hydrogen mentioned in Luke 16:31 destroyed his hard disk fourteen days later and erased the Culinary History of Aviation. He goes on trial December 1." - Jason Rosendale "First off I am not religious, I am a Christian. Second I did not give up on it, I refused to take part in a mock trail of God." - Kenneth Mcabee "What your missing David, is the most bible believing Christains do not question God. Why does he require blood for the forgiveness of sin? What does it matter? It does, the bible says it, we believe it." - KM "You still haven'g gotten have you? Someone who believes in the Bible also believes that you do not need evidence, but rather faith." - KM "First if the Christians were doing thier job right noone would die never hearing the "Good News". If they did not hearing then by my bible I have to say that they are condemned. And that we the Christians did not do as we were commanded." - KM "you a answer on your question simply due to the fact that I am not God, and do not have the capability to punish my kids for eternity. I cannot give you an answer, I do not know what I would do if I could punish them for eternity." - KM "Just because I am willing to debate Christianity does not mean that I am here to learn any truth contrary to my beliefs." - KM Let me put it this way, even if I agreed with your statement that God is an unrepentant barbarian, he is still God. I still have the choice to make, either I believe in him and go to heaven, or I don't and go to hell. With those two choice, I don't care if God is the most hateful thing ever created, I still would not want to go to hell, and I would still believe in him." - KM "God will be coming soon. He will tryumph over any gods that other people have made. Like the god of money...etc. In the end you will be judged by him. He will make you accountable for every thing you did." - Alex Sousa "You can't blame them. They can't think. They are a result of a mechanistic organization of matter. They don't have thoughts any more than a computer has thoughts. Their "thoughts" are nothing but mechanistic processes. Hmmm, they probably don't even have conciseness." - Andrew Cummins, refering to non-Christians. "Hitler believed in big government. Hitler didn't believe that human life had inherent value, thus he supported such things as abortion. Considering many factors, Hitler seems a lot like a modern American liberal." - AC "Don't be a liberal dupe. Even most heterosexuals with AIDS 'earned' it... but it's still is a fag disease." - AC "Then maybe the poor should either avoid being poor or avoid behaving in a way that makes them feel a need to avoid responsibility with something they can't afford." - AC "She prayed and asked (*demanded* - she's a tough lady) for the life of this little one back. After 15 minutes or so a crowd was gathered (you can picture it) and she saw some police out of the corner of her eye starting to approach. But the people pressed around her so, that the police couldn't get through. After a half hour or more of continuing to pray the baby gave a sneeze and came back to life." - Peter Sawyer "That's a lot better than denying the Truth just because you're afraid of it. The more I read from you and the others like you in this echo, the more I know my faith is true. Thanks." - Tony Grisier "Didn't you know that *we* are Satan?" - Gord Magill "I know this is only second hand, but our local TV news did a two or three part series on parents killing their own children. The incident in Union was not as isolated as we would like to think and it may be a good working hypothosis. I don't remember the statistics that they gave, but the point was that the rate has been on a marked increase, beginning in the mid 70s. Guess when Roe v. Wade came down. The news didn't provide the corellation, history did. Now, I realize that its easy to lie with statistics. Even when you have a corellation, that doesn't prove a hypthosis, it merely supports it. If I can find the numbers I'll post them soy we don't have to go on just my remembrance of the local news." - David Hatfield "I have never accepted the Ideal personally that gays have any rights and i never will." - Don Ward "Heres my judgment ,you are a desolate little old man who's afraid to leave your little xt/pc. I get on this "echo" because of all the fools on it, but you live on this "echo"." - DW "I think your under a lot of "STRESS". Maybe you need an _assistant moderator_, one that would make this _echo_ appeal to all types of people. Therefore I'll make a "kind" gesture of you letting me run this bias _echo_ for a month or so. So I can help you achieve a respectable "echo", for the good of all." - DW "Adults do not allow others to speak their own minds in any fashon they want, Ive not seen that anywhere. Adults do let Children ( somewhat) learn the language but it has appeared to me thru many of your post that you do have a good sense of language so I can only presume that you are very much an adult." - John Reynolds "... "How talk you, yes. That, do we. Idiot, fucking, you are.": Yoda" - Tagline "Considering the Christian views on abortion and assisted suicide, my guess is that once you accept this "gift" of eternal life, you can never give it back. Seems like you might be making a mistake that could literally haunt you forever by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and saviour, especially since Christians seem to think that just anything that is fun to do is a sin." - "Captain Fuck"/Dan Baldwin/"Dr. James Robertson" "`Aboard ship take thou the SEED of life' I am refering to the SEED of all life of any species. Only one thing did NOAH need to take two of, on the ARK, of EVERY living creature that walked upon the EARTH, and would easily be able to do so with the technology of the -GODS-. Also buy taking the SEED of life of every living creature he could get two of each on that small ARK. The SEED of life being refered to is, GENES. The GENES of a male and female of every creature would have accomplished the task nicely, would it not? With this you no longer have an argument of not enough room to house two of every creature, food to feed them for more than 6 months, etc...." - Barry "Suspended Animation" Laminack "He will not be there for you. If you have not accepted his lordship over your life, then you are at war with him and he is at war with you. That is not to say that he is not willing to forgive, but to stand in the place of God's judgement is a fearful place to be. What is right and wrong? Where does the idea come from? If you go by feelings, your feelings change from day to day. Do your morals change from day to day? Without God there is no right and wrong. There must be a reference point outside of yourself upon which to base your value judgements. What is your reference point? Without one you are incapable of determining for yourself what is right and what is wrong." - Unknown fundi Any evidence I have would be meaningless, because your point of view would prevent the obvious conclusion. I cannot *prove* to you the existence of God just as you cannot prove to me the non-existence of God. God has proven himself to me through the power he has shown in changing my life. Only the power of God can change a man's life and set him free from the burden of sin. Not that any Christian will ever be sinless, but the assurance of knowing the the penalty for your sin has been erased changes your life completely. I cannot prove to you the existence of God, but if you accept what he says about himself and about you in his Word the Bible, then everything makes complete sense." - Timothy Hartley "A recent court case acquitted Donald Napora of endangering the lives of the public by knowingly having unprotected anal intercourse (otherwise known as sodomy), while knowing he was HIV positive. Sodomy, once a crime against the state, is now not only tolerated and accepted, but actually promoted in many of our public school sex education programs, in spite of the fact that it is the leading cause of infection of the AIDS virus. For a society that is as safety conscious as any in the world, this is a gross contradiction. Does this bother you?" - Alan Kern "Christians envying Pagans and wiccans? There's nothing to envy. Your god was defeated by the blood of Jesus 2000 years ago, and he's only living on borrowed time. You're following a loser, the biggest one in history of the universe." - AK "Science/archeology have often, and still do change their conclusions as they continue to find new evidence." - AK "Is AIDS a plague sent by God to judge homosexuals? "Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and recieving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due"Rom.1:27 You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure these things out. Why is it only the Christians who can discern the signs of the times? Because they have the mind of Christ, and unbelievers have only their own." - AK-47 "And, BTW, if you'll read that bible you're always thumping, you'll find that Jesus was a liberal. He hung around with poor people and social outcasts, he helped the poor, he said that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. But then again, you have your head so far up your ass that you don't notice these things." - Quentin Fai "I detect the pot calling the fridge black. If there's anyone who's been soundly disemboweled, it's you. You seem to be too stupid to notice, though." - QF "When Jesus comes again, and I believe it will be soon, there will be no need for Democrats, Republicans or political representatives whatsoever. Not only this, but the Constitution/Civil Rights Amendments and othersuch will be out of place as well. For we who are his children will live under the rule of a true Theocracy. We will be his people, and he will be our God. And those who have chosen to reject God/Christ won't be around anymore to pester those who ARE God's chosen people (and I do not speak here of the Jewish nation)." - Tenna Draper "Loose your fuckin' quote box or I'll rip yer head off with my pitchfork." - Satan "No one on this earth is starving to death EXCEPT by choice and Lazyness." - Titus Ashbury "Why does the earth always take 24 hours to get around the sun? Who controls this?" - Gary Hull "All are Slaves to God.. some know it, some dont." - Pratap Derrick "...I do think that Christians are functionally illiterate or amoral. Why? Because if you read your own damn holy book, and were a decent person, you would reject it out of hand. Therefore, Christians (1) never read the Bible, (2) can't understand what they read, or (3) are indecent." - John McHenry "The thoughtless are rarely wordless." - Tagline ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "But the Holy Spirit is a person....in the Godhead." - Unknown "Is the "Godhead" where gods go to the bathroom?" - J.J. Hitt "Quick, Jesus -- to the Godcave!" - Hector Plasmic ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Benevolence is a straw man, and these asteroids of yours are totally theoretical." - Jesse Hornbacher "Really? You really have lived a sheltered life, haven't you? Maybe you ought to take a trip to Arizona (that's in the Southwestern U.S. in case you don't know) and jump into Meteor Crater and bump your "theoretical head". Ever look at the moon? Wonder where those craters came from? Or do you think the moon really is made out of cheese? Swiss at that?" - Carl Wilson ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Sorry, I must have misunderstood your question. I believe that the Holy Spirit caused one of Mary's eggs to become a fetus without sperm." - Steve Bedard "In vertebrates, the phenomena of parthenogenesis (look it up) is well documented in the classes Pisces, Amphibia and Reptilia, but not in Aves nor Mammalia. Therefore, we are forced to conclude that ol' Jesus must have been either a land shark or the original lounge lizard." - Marty Leipzig ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Methinks they protest too much! If God doesn't exist, why pay any attention to the activities of Christians?" - Frank Mcfatridge "Because if you don't, one of their number might just stick a 12 gauge in your ear and pull the trigger." - Marty Leipzig ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Christians envying Pagans and wiccans? There's nothing to envy. Your god was defeated by the blood of Jesus 2000 years ago, and he's only living on borrowed time. You're following a loser, the biggest one in history of the universe." - Alan Kern "Do you have some evidence of this god of yours or are just blowing smoke out your ass." - Martin Goldberg ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Most believers know the Bible was written by humans. The "issue" is whether or not the human authors accurately described events such as the parting of the sea." - John Prewitt "Okay. Then how did humans describe events such as the creation, which happened before there were any humans to witness them? So much for that hypothesis." - Kelsey Bjarnason ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Do you really expect me to believe that if God came down and killed your child that you wouldn't be in the least bit upset?" - David Worrell "Why should I be? Thier all going to heaven." - Kenneth Mcabee ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I watched my daddy farm." - Hampie Mcdonald "Fancy that... Old Mcdonald had a farm." - J.J. Hitt ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Besides, if I was caught in a boat with Don [Ward], I'd jump overboard." - Kevin Mckenzie "That's where you and I are different - I'd throw Don overboard." - David Worrell "When you get to be my age, you learn patience. I would not jump overboard. I would not throw him overboard. In such a situation, with only two guys, one boat, and the sea stretching for miles, I stand an excellent chance of getting hungry later on." - Don Martin ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "This is not comprehenable to man's brain." - Alan Kern "So which is it, Alan? You don't comprehend it or you don't have a man's brain?" - "Hector Plasmic" ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "So, "God" talks to you?" - Unknown "Sure! Doesn't he talk to everybody?" - Tenna Draper ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I agree it was not written for our level of technology. Yet fundies, in spite of this, still insist on a literal interpretation." - Bruce Riley "Yet Daniel told of aircraft, wireless radio, headlights on cars. Modern technology. Naahhh." - Titus Ashbury ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "We are _all_ worthy of death." - Tenna Draper "*You* might be. Kindly leave the rest of us out of your delusions." - David Worrell ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Tuck your telephone wire up your arse, Doug, and upload your nine posts where they will do the most good." - Don Martin "I can always tell when I've hit the nail on the head: folks start squawking. Thanks for confirming that the message got out." - Doug Snead "You take a studied, vulgar insult of your behavior as a "squawk"? You ARE a mindless little pustule, aren't you?" - DM "BTW. Are you saved?" - DS "I am afraid I do not share your hallucinations regarding imaginary superfriends. Corroborate your biblical ravings with some verifiable evidence, and I might consider signing up. But not until." - DM ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "May the Lord Jesus Christ soften your heart, Mr Martin." - Doug Snead "He seems to have done a very good job of softening your brain." - J.J. Hitt ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "It is stupid little gooks that bother me. Go stick it up your yellow ass." - Matt Giwer "I always suspected that Mr. Giwer was a complete and total gerbil smuggling sheep humper, and now you've provided me with concrete evidence. It's losers like that who give the rest of us godless heathens a bad name." - Quentin Fai ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "JESUS died for His people." - Douglas Duke "Jesus didn't die, remember? Don't you Christers believe he still lives?" - David Worrell ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "The scientific evidence is at the end. Read the whole posting, it flows." - Andew Conner "Another characteristic it shares with diarrhoea." - Don Martin ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "So, why do the paramedics take a pulse? Why don't they just thump the patient on the head?" - Don Ward "Because, in your case, it could possibly damage their hands." - Dan Ceppa ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Oxygen is technically a poison, and is one of the causes of our eventual death. Would you appreciate it if I tried to stop you from breathing to prevent the damage to your body that oxygen causes?" - David Worrell "Once again, a terrible analogy. I shouldn't even bother answering it, but I might as well say something. First of all we need oxygen to survive. I don't have to have sex with a male or female in order to survive." - Ralph Jansen "Irrelevant. Your whole argument against homosexuality rests on the fact that it damages bodily tissues. Oxygen does the same thing. However, since you don't like the oxygen angle, try certain harmful food groups. Do you believe that fried foods should be outlawed since they damage our bodies? Yes, I know, we do need to eat to survive, but it doesn't have to be fried chicken. Are you going to support the campaign to outlaw Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant?" - DW ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "What happens when that big fusion bomb fails to emit light and heat." - Andrew "Head-crash" Conner "We freeze to death. Got any more silly questions?" - David Worrell "Evidence of DE-EVOLUTION" - AC "What is evidence of de-evolution?" - DW ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Satan is clever" - Don Ward "And, of course, you don't want to be anything like satan. Congratulations, you've succeeded." - Hector Plasmic ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Perhaps we could use him [Jim Staal] as a buoy in the middle of the shipping channel." - Dan Ceppa "I don't think so. Can you imagine the time it would take to get anything done in a harbor if one of the bouys was constantly proselytizing every ship that passed by?" - David Worrell "ROTFL! `I baptize you the USS Fundy! Now, be fruitful and deliver those bananas.'" - Dan Ceppa ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "The USA could kick Canada's butt with 99% of our military tied behind our back... thanks to our technological and military knowledge." - Andrew Cummins "Wow, how patriotic of you. Patriotism is one thing, Andy...but ignorance of the world is the one disease you seem to suffer from most. Why would you be proud of the fact that we can invade and take over Canada (this is doubtful I might add)? Why would you be proud of the fact that we've invested so much money in bullets and far from enough in education?" - Ryan Shaw ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I've already addressed this in one message to you, but to emphasize: I AM NOT A FUNDAMENTALIST. Do NOT make assumptions about me thinking I am." - Michael Hardy "`Quack,' said a certain flight-capable aquatic fowl. You persist in trying to include the unaffected in your beliefs. If you have webbed feet, quack and waddle like a duck, chances are, you are, indeed, a duck." -FR ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "(Here, sheep, sheep, sheep.... Here, sheep, sheep, sheep.....)" - Quentin Fai "Try your local church." - Drew Webber ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "The main thrust of the cross is that JESUS was placed upon a pole, just as Moses lifted up the serpent on a pole in the OT." - Douglas Duke "And when the Pope lifts his staff, we have the spectacle of Jesus on a pole on a Pole." - Don Martin ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Christians have a right and a duty to eradicate all false religions from the face of the earth. If possible this should be done through bringing the lost to Jesus. If that doesn't work then these false relions should be destroyed by any means necessary." - "Trent Dented" "Dear Trent... You aint dented, yer fucking wrapped around a goddam tree. Do any of these "false religions" that you have marked for destruction claim to be Christian? If so, please tell me how you tell the "true" Christians from the "false" Christians? Are you out to destroy all Catholics or all Protestants? And what about the Christian Scientists, Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists and the Salvation Army? You gonna destroy all them too? They _ALL_ beleive in Jesus, even if they disagree with the mainstream on some points. How many Jews are you going to destroy? (The current high score is six-million some odd. That's going to be mighty hard to beat.)" - J.J. Hitt ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Atheist ethics are so much hot air." - John Prewett "While Christian ethics carry hot lead with them?" - George Rudzinski ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Christianity would be amusing, if it hadn't killed millions throughout history." - Unknown "Christianity never killed anybody or anything. Angry, frightened people killed other people while hiding behind the name." - Charlie Cowan "Hmm. By the same reasoning, Naziism never killed anybody. The problem with such reasoning is that it completely ignores the reality that many dogmas include an incitement to killing. Take a gander at the Old Testament, for example: it is loaded with rampant killing, generally for no more reason than that the victims dared to think for themselves." - Kelsey Bjarnason ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Well, now keep in mind that I am only speaking for myself." - Jim Staal "Lil' fundi, I don't see the prospects for you being hired to speak for anyone else ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Maybe you should ask MISTER Ceppa. He'll probably try and convince you that is really Dave Oosterman." - Jim Staal "Between you and Oosterman, you don't have enough balls to make a pawn sign symbol." - Dan Ceppa ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Believe me, I *KNOW* the human side of *frustration*!!!" - Niki Zanzo "Have you considered hiring a hooker?" - "Captain Fuck" ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I didn't think that curse words and sacrigious messages belonged on this conference." - Margureet Kendall "You have provided ample evidence of your incapacity to think in the past, so why should the present be any different?" - Don Martin ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Gravity to you is Satan holding you back from the salvation of Jesus Christ." - Don Ward "What have you been smoking and what was it laced with?" - Preston Simpson "Second hand smoke laced with the spirit of GOD" - Don Ward ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Gay people are worshipers of SATIN" - Don Ward "No sheet?" -J.J. Hitt ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "One day not to far away I am afaid to say that it will actually be against the law to speak of Jesus in public," - Michell Miller "Your paranoid delusions are amusingly ridiculous. But if they make life a little sweeter for you, enjoy." - Robert Curry ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "American schools are falling FAR behind the rest of the world. We are really becoming a joke, in so far as education goes. This started when we took prayer and creation teaching out of public schools. Conclussion: We took God out of school, and the school system is falling apart." - Doug Brewer "Preposterous to the nth degree. The Japanese have one of the most rigorous and hardest school systems in the world, churning out highly-educated people who, unlike many of their American counterparts, can read, write, and cipher by the time they graduate. I am not aware of *any* Christian influence in *any* Japanese class, yet they consistently provide higher educational standards than we do. Conclusion: Your conclusion is full of shit." - Preston Simpson ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "... God told me to set you on fire." - Dan Ceppa "Uh, I don't _think_ so. God does not talk to evil pagans who do not believe He exists." - Jim Staal ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "What does John 3:16 mean to you." - Marguerite Kendall "It means it is time for John to get a new watch. His current one is stuck." - Steve Rose ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Bob Swell "Kill any innocent witches of late?" - Fredric Rice ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I didn't make this up, it says this in the Bible." - Chris Vetter "I see. So you are simply allowing someone else to make it all up for you." - Steve Rose ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Ah, the tired and disreputable old "He wasn't a *true* Christian" argument. Save it for someone who hasn't heard it." - Preston Simpson "Argumentum ad bozum non Christii." - Robert Jackson ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I guess you are also forgetting the practice of human sacrifice as described in the bible?" - Judith "Bandsaw" Bandsma "Shame on you Judith! You call yourself a Quaker! I smell a witch." - Jim Murray "Fee, fie, fo, fum, we all smell the stench of Christendom. Gonna start lighting bonfires, are you now? It's quite typical of the ignorant to accuse those more learned than they of "witchcraft". Your ancestors from Plymouth would be so thrilled that you are carrying on the family bigotry. I suppose you still wear one of those pointy hats to hide your pointed head." - Dan Ceppa ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Alcohol should still be illegal. I am sure that everyone is familiar with the harm that it does when used to excess. If everyone were capable of using it in moderation, I would see no problem with it, but you and I know that is not the case." -Dan Baldwin/Captain Fuck/Dr. James Robertson So your answer is punish everybody because a minority of idiots lack self-control and good judgement? Gee, then I guess we should ban the use of automobiles, firearms, cutlery, and baseball bats. Your inability to reason astounds me. And I've met my share of unreasonable people." - Garrett Banse ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "As marijuana does not produce food, it was not put here for our benefit." - Dan Baldwin/Captain Fuck/Dr. James Robertson "Do you have even the most remote evidence to support this stupid idea? We cannot eat air, gasoline, cotton, glass, etc. either, so by your statement I guess we should all run around naked until we suffocate, huh?" - John Hewett ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I hope Staal and Oosterman are covering their ears. Or should I tell them you're in desperate need of counseling?" - Unknown "Counseling? Counseling for what?" - Jim Staal/Dave Oosterman "A split personality. Thing is, between the 2 of you, you don't have one." - Dan Ceppa ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "More unsubstantiated rubbish. Can't you think for yourself?" - Preston Simpson "Sorry I don't need too, I have God to think for me." - Kenneth Mcabee ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "[however, even in the OT, God reasoned with God's people," - John Prewitt "and anyone who was not "God's people" were wiped off the face of the planet if they got in the way." - David Worrell "So,... once the word gets around, smart people don't get in the way." - John Prewett "Ahhh.. I see. God's a *bully*. It's so much clearer now. You have reaffirmed the claim made by many of us heathens that your God rules through intimidation and fear." - David Worrell ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Stop the car or you're going to drive off a cliff!" That's what the warning of "hell" is Stephen, a warning -- not a threat." -Michael Hardy "Ahh, but God put us in the car, cut the brake lines, and aimed the car at a cliff." - David Worrell "Then hid all evidence that the cliff exists, made sure that all 'warnings' were irrational, illogical, and patently absurd, and then selected only drooling lunatics as its spokespeople. Guite obviously, this god of theirs is more fucked up than they are." - David Rice ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Yes, perfectly. So, if MY book says it's the Word of God, how do you know that it is not?" - Steve Quarella "Because only _mine_ is, silly man. Why does it take you so long to catch on to these things?" - Jim Stall ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I'm glad you said that...Get thee to a library and read SALVATION FOR SALE. Gerard Thomas Straub is the author." - Steve Quarella "Sorry. Don't read pagan books" - Jim Staal ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Now, the sun-worshippers noticed that at certain points in time, the sun grew smaller, then stopped, then grew larger." - Leon Brooks "It doesn't. It doesn't even APPEAR to change in size." - J.J. Hitt "Perhaps you haven't been staring at it for long enough." - Leon Brooks ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Ask your local public librarian about other scriptures, Jim." - Robert Curry "There are no other scriptures, Robert..." - Jim Staal ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "You guess wrong. The Hindus, the Zoroastrians, and the Buddhists are just three other religious groups that had religious scriptures before your Christian religion even began writing its own." - Robert Curry "Ha-ha! Where _do_ you get this irresponsible information? Nothing could be farther from the truth. Nothing predates Genesis 1:1...'in the beginning...'." - Jim Staal ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "That's it, blow job. "IS NOT!!!!!" You are a liar -" - Drew Webber "AM NOT!!!" - Jim Staal " Scream it a little louder for those in back." - Preston Simpson ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ This is the introduction to the HOLYSMOKE Fidonet echo conference FAQ. It attempts to ask the question, "Why is there holy smoke?" The quick answer is, "Because it fills a need." The long answer is slightly more complicated. There are many religion-based echo conferences in Fidonet, most of which are sponsored and moderated by members of various religions. The majority of these conferences are various forms of monotheism such as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, with various Christian cults dominating (in Zone 1). Many other religious conferences are polytheistic or pantheistic, such as Wiccan, Pagan, and neo-Pagan. And then there are what can loosely be clumped together as "New Age," though much of "New Age Thought" is not religious, but rather philosophical and ideological-- this observation varies from one "New Ager" to another. The latter two echoes welcome honest inquiry and criticism. The Wiccan religion, of which there are several "Traditions,", REQUIRE honest inquiry, relentless questioning, and harsh criticism from their members and students to any dogma that may be presented-- the Wiccan echoes reflect this free inquiry, and all queries are generally answered in the spirit of honesty and mutual respect. None of us have spent any time in the "New Age" (Rymes with sewage) echoes, so we can't tell you anything about them. If you have spent any time at all reading the monotheist echoes, and particularly the Christian and Islamic ones, you will have discovered that the moderators, without exception, are authoritarian, dictatorial, and grim "control freaks" who will not tolerate honest inquiry of their ridged dogma-- questioning "virgin births," "bleeding / weeping statues," and asking "Why would god pray to himself?" are immediately ruled "off topic," and the person posing the question may have her echo feed severed, usually with a lot of hell and damnation thrown in, sometimes with threats of legal action, and then she is ordered to repent from her sin of questioning "god" (i.e. the moderator's occult beliefs). Since these cults refuse to accept anything less than unquestioned obedience to their religious dogma, another echo was required where one may go and ask the right questions and discover the truth. The HOLYSMOKE echo exists so that off-topic religious issues from other echoes in Fidonet may be moved to an echo where they are topical. No one in the past four years has yet succeeded in helping any theist think past their brainwashing and self-deception to see the truth, but there's always the chance that some ignorant god- believing savage will be saved from their delusions, so we have to try. Q: What is "HOLYSMOKE?" A: HolySmoke, the "McLaughlin Group" of Fidonet echoes, is an arena wherein people with deeply-held religious convictions may come and set the ignorant Godless heathens straight, or not, as the case may be. This is the echo where echovangelists are banished when they are off-topic in other Fidonet echoes, such as A_THEIST and COOKING. (See "Echovangelist" entry below). It is the "electroshock therapy for religion addicts" cure that so many Fidonet members are so richly and clearly in need of. The moderator is Styx Allum of 1:152/20. If you don't like his name, insult his parents. It's REAL! Q: Why is the phrases "You seem bitter" and "My, you're so full of anger" so often used by religionists in HolySmoke? A: These phrases are often used as replies to excessively abrasive arguments by an agnostic or atheist that has demonstrated the religionist's pet assertions false; the religionist resorts to eliciting an emotional response instead of addressing the topic at hand. A: From John Musselwhite: You may be missing the point. The people who are ridiculed (as it were) are not those who profess a simple belief in a creator; they are those who insist their beliefs are correct and we MUST ALL bow down before GOD before we all roast in Hell. Then there are those who make ridiculous claims about the veracity of their "Book" and attempt to use pseudo-science to "prove" they are right. As for myself, I could care less who a person worships, although I usually strongly disagree with their intent. As a secular student of biblical times, I have learned a lot about what Christianity was really all about (IMHO) and what life was like in first-century Judah. Personally, I feel those who take the Bible literally and those who follow Pauline thought should study more, and attempt to understand what was REALLY going on! By far the biggest problem though, are those who insist I should pay to support their religion. Our city supports a separate school system for Catholics, and the duplication of services and buildings costs every one of us. There are many examples of religion being pushed on those who do not wish it. We who do NOT wish to have anything to do with religion must suffer through innumerable disturbances from people who insist their religion should be in the forefront. THOSE are the people who are the targets of ridicule in this echo! Q: What is a `fundi'? (Also, fundy, fundies) A: From Marty Leipzig: FUNDIE (fun'dee) n. and adj. (pl. Fundies), A member of an American conservative religious movement that believes in biblical inerrancy. This movement had its roots in the nineteenth-century orthodox reaction to the higher (historico- literary) criticism of the Bible that originated among European theologians and was accepted by American "modernists". Fundamentalism owes its name to the "Five Fundamentals", a list of five beliefs that the Presbyterian General Assembly drew up in 1910 as being essential to the Christian faith. Among those fundamentals was the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. Fundies (scientifically: Homo nesciens idiotus) come in two varieties; (about more later) but are united by the belief that each and every word ("jot and tittle") of the Holy Writ (at least, their latest authorized version) is unequivocally true. When they find a text convenient to an argument, it is quotable as the ultimate truth. But when confronted with an apparent contradiction, however rational and logical, they sail away upon the wings of a symbol, an analogy of hidden or recondite significance. Although two separate and distinct "kinds" of fundies exist, (H.n.i. var. ruralensis and H.n.i. var. urbanensis), they can be typically identified by their ubiquitous possession of a heavily thumped (but seldom read) Bible; an almost cataleptic and unquestioned adherence to dated dogma and the extraordinarily annoying ability of being able to interject their own personal version of ethics and morality into almost any subject, no matter how abstruse. As a group, they are exasperatingly uni-dimensional. H.n.i. var. ruralensis can be typified as a backwoods rustic living among the 'possums, 'coons, 'dillos and magnolias who is functionally illiterate. Though some may become transplanted to more municipal settings; they stubbornly adhere to old habits: mouth breathing, barefootedness and brainless Bible-based bleating. A macroevolutionary jump (although most would argue that it is really a regressive event) is responsible for the other variety: H.n.i. var. urbanensis. They arose from their humbler cousins in the deep, dark, dank backwoods but have evolved to exploit the trophism of bright lights, television cameras, teleprompters and wireless communication. Basically, a member of this group can be described as a country bumpkin of the wacko-right turned religious zealot and usually named Billy, Jimmy, Oral or some other familiar sobriquet. They drape the mantle of Christian piety around their shoulders (which they carefully interweave with the American flag), and stomping off on a witch hunt; ferret out "fellow travelers", "one- worlders", that archenemy of all right thinking people: the "secular humanist", and other assorted bogeymen. With a primitive view of this world and a psychedelic view of the next, they harangue lost sinners (and those with the ability to think for themselves) in an impassioned and declamatory style to "REPENT!" and be born again. Ranting and raving; and spouting smoke, fury, fire, brimstone and stained glass blather; they pace whatever stage they can usurp like a whirling dervish with a caffeine addiction. The venue may change, but the song always remains the same. Usually, such narrowly unspecialized organisms as the ones cited above represent an evolutionary dead-end. In these cases, though, it is more of a U-turn. A: From Don Martin: Fundy is short for a combination of two words emerging from the same Latin root, _fundus_ (bottom), from whence _fundare_ (to lay the bottom). The English _fundament_ refers to 1. the buttocks. 2. the anus. Religious extremists, who do their thinking with these organs, practice _fundamentalism_: 1. orthodox religious beliefs based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. 2. Among some American Protestants, the movement based on this belief: opposed to _modernism_. Around here, fundy simply means religious asshole. [Isn't that redundant? -CJ] A: Someone who hates for God, and calls it "love." These can come from any cult: Born Against Christians, Krishna Devotees, Mormons, Cult Awareness Network, Pat Robertson's, Jerry Falwell's, Jimmy Stewart's. Q: "Why is everyone picking on me?" A: Chances are, you deserve it. When someone asserts wild and baseless claims, and then insists that others believe these claims, one may expect a little heat. Some assertions that generate heat: "My book was written by god because it says so, and god wouldn't lie." "God hates such-and-such." "God loves such-and-such." "I'll pray for you, you stupid ignorant gibbering idiot pitiful atheists." Some of the theists in HOLYSMOKE are not picked on or abused, because they do not bring it upon themselves. Most atheists and agnostics, Pagans and Wiccans and other disreputable folks in HOLYSMOKE get their toast fried now and then, too, so don't feel you're alone in your "persecution." Q: Everyone is calling me a bigot because I stand for Christ! [Oh, PLEASE drive those nails in harder!] A: From Kelsey Bjarnason: Incorrect. Anyone who discriminates based on prejudice or other unreasoned foundation is labelled 'bigot'. If blacks were known to be rampant killers with no sense of the value of life, you would not be a bigot to be afraid of them, or to point out that they need to be controlled. However, blacks are not rampant killers. Indeed, the only distinguishing feature, as a group compared to whites as a group, is their skin pigmentation - hardly a worthy basis for fearing or controlling them. You see? Someone who discriminates against blacks simply because they are black is a bigot - the discrimination is entirely unwarranted. Many Christians are shown to be bigots by the words and their actions. They discriminate against gays, against people who have sex before marriage, against women, against scientists. All of that discrimination is based on - and please make very careful note of this - ***nothing*** more than their personal choice to adopt a belief system of which such discrimination is an inherent part. You can't point to God. You can't show that he exists. There is asbolutley nothing in all of observed reality which even hints at any deity, let alone a specific deity. The only way to adopt the belief in such a being is *purely* by personal choice. You choose to adopt a belief of discrimination and hatred. Can you see now why disliking Christians, or more accurately the Christian dogma, is not necessarily bigotry, but rather is a sane and rational response to a very real threat? Q: What is "Hir?" A: Politically correct gender-neutral noun, "Her + Him = Hir." Q: What is "Crucifixation?" A: A state of mental duress, usually inside a fundamentalist Christian brain, that admires blood, guts, suffering, agony, drinking blood of God and eating His body, and usually wishes to be crucified and martyred hirself. This fixation prevents those afflicted with it to question why Jews would crucify a heretic in the Roman fashion, when death by stoning was the preferred method of disposing of sons of Gods. Q: What is the "Flood Of Ignorance?" A: The Creationist's claims of a global flood, survived by Noah and his clan, whereby millions of humans died horribly; whereby billions of animals died in screaming terror by drowning-- your typical Christian Death Cult story, which they get off on so much. Q: What's this "IHS!" thing? A: This can mean a great many things! It was originally coined by a HolySmoke Regular to mean "In His Service!" though it is not clear just who "His" may be. Usual variations may mean "I'm Happy Stupid!" SHIt backwards, "I'm Helping Satan!" "In Hitler's Service!" "I Hate Science!" "Idiot Has Spoken!" "I heat sausage!" "I Hate Spam!" and others far too numerous to mention. The most common usage in HOLYSMOKE means "BULLtIHS!" The original meaning is "In Hoc Signum Vincit," referring to the Christian crucifix as "By this sign we conquer." Q: And what's this "TIHS!" thing? A: SHIT backwards. Q: What is "One Nation Under God?" A: Iran. Q: What is a "Creationist?" A: What apes evolved from. Q: Really, what is a Creationist? A: Someone who is stupid enough to 'think' the FACT of evolution is false just because their hol(e)y book(s) tell them so. Q: What is a "Factualist?" A: See Creationist. Q: What is a "Not Real True Christian?" A: Any Christian that isn't a member of the same cult as the one talking right now. A: When murder, mayhem, rape, and atrocities are performed by Christians in the name of God, their partners in religion say they were not Real True Christians. Some famous Not Real True Christians include Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Jones, Hitler, Jerry Falwell, All Catholics, Jeffrey Dahlmer, Mike Warnke, John "Todd" Collins, Mormons, God Jehovah, and the IRA/Provos. Q: What is a "Real True Christian?" A: The Christian that you happen to be talking to at this minute. A: A Christian, individually or grouped in a herd, that has not yet been exposed as child molesters, pornographers, whore-mongers, serial killers, or income tax cheaters. (See "Not Real True Christian.") Some famous Real True Christians are Gandi, who wasn't, Buddha, who isn't, and Jesus, who never existed. Q: Now hold on here. You can't responsibly group those obviously psychotic fringe groups that claim to be of God with the true Christians among us. A: From Paul Boyer: Why not group "those obviously psychotic fringe groups" with the rest of the *cough, cough* "True Christians"? You "True Christians" do exactly the same thing you decry above, against groups with which you disagree -- i.e., you characterize all gays and lesbians from the actions of extremist ACT UP affinity groups; you characterize all pro-choice people from the activities of a few doctors who perform late-term abortions [in emergencies]; you characterize all Liberals from the views of a few who are doctrinaire Leftists. You and your kind demonize your opponents from the actions of a few of the most extreme of their kind, yet expect to be exempt from similar stigmatization? Q: What is "Christian Double Standard Time" A: This is the standard that some Christians use to judge who is and is not Christian. If a Christian commits a crime for Jesus, the perpetrator may or may not be a criminal or Christian, depending on the crime. See "Not Real Christian." Q: What is a "Christian Comic?" A: In a great many Fidonet echoes, there are days when a Christian Fundamentalist waltzes in, says something hilarious, then waltzes out without regard for topical relatedness, quality, protocol, or desire for rational dialogue. Humorous stuff like "You're forever damned for all time," or "The first law of thermodynamics says evolution is false (they don't know how to count to two)," or "They aren't Real True Christians." Such jerks often get refered to HOLYSMOKE. Most of them are cowards for Christ and never show up. Q: What does "IS NOT!" mean? A: This is the Theory of Creation Science. Q: What is the "Theory of Creation Science?" A: "IS NOT!" Creationists refuse to provide a theory of Creationism, because they do not have one. Therefore it is damn hard to teach it in public school, yet they still demand that it should. Creationists assume that if they can find holes in evolutionary theory, their religious beliefs become true via default. Therefore their efforts are never to find evidence to falsify their non- existent theory, but to "prove" evolutionary theory unsound-- this effort they call "Creation Science," which it isn't. Go figure. Q: What is the "$15.00 God Challenge?" A: David Rice will give US$15.00 to anyone who can prove He isn't God. Previous attempts have failed miserably, as contestants assume that He must perform some miracle for them, which would be Him proving He is God, and not them proving He is not. This challenge is a thought experiment for theists to consider when they assert proof of their tiny little gods and disproof of Others like the One True God, David Rice. If they can prove their god(s) are real, surely they can prove Omnipotent Rice isn't? Frederic Rice aparently has $1000 U.S. up for grabs if anyone can prove any god exists. NOTE: These offers are from their respective parties. I am in no way connected with them. I have not verified the truthfulnes of either offer. Q: What is the "Mutant Star Goat?" A: The One True God, Who created life, the universe, and everything. Now prove me wrong! This is another thought experiment for theists. Everything they claim for their God(s) can be said for Star Goat with equal validity. Star Goat (braise His name) sent His only begotten Son, Billy, to Earth to die on the Holy Bar-Be-Que Pit for us. Those who continue to deny this truth will be eaten on Judgment Day by Star Goat, to stew in the Holy Bile for all eternity. If a theist believes she or he can punch a hole in Star Goat theology, they should come to realize eventually that every hole they create APPLIES EQUALLY to their God(s). No one can prove Star Goat is not the One True God, and Goatees know in their hearts that He is, therefore He is! QED. Q: What is a "Goatee?" A: A devotee of Star Goat. Q: What is "Bile-ed" and "Bile-it?" A: When evil sinners, or anyone else who did not worship Star Goat in life, find themselves dead, their souls will be swallowed by Billy, Star Goat's only beGoatten Son, to stew in the Holy Bile for all eternity. This is roughly equivalent to "damned" but unlike the falsehood of Hell, the Holy Bile EXISTS! Goat save you if you don't hurry and accept Billy as your Personal Savior! Send money! We are the advocates of the Goat Life! Honest. (No refunds.) Q: "Pink, invisible, flying hippo?" Excuse me? A: Yes. Her name is Daisy, and she leaves invisible, smell-free turds on the keyboards of every fundy that posts in HOLYSMOKE. Now prove she doesn't! When someone brings up the non-measurability of their favorite god (Jesus, Satan, Yahweh, Jehovah, Zeus, Odin), others bring up Daisy and point out that the evidence she exists is identical to the evidence their god(s) exist. Q: What's an Athiest? A: Bile-ed if I know! Christian Comics use this word to represent people without morals; heathens without ethics; lawyers; baby-eaters; perverts; sodomites; people who voted Democrat. This word is universally used by theists, and helps to demonstrate the abysmal lack of education that is common in fundamentalist families. Q: What's an Atheist? [HINT: Look at the case of the first letter!] A: No such animal. Did you mean atheist? Q: Err, what's the difference? A: None, but if you insist on using Atheist, you will be showing that you are a complete and utter bozo who knows next to nothing about grammar. Q: What's an atheist? A: From Usenet's alt.atheist FAQ: Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God. Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist. The former is often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong atheism". It is important to note the difference between these two positions. "Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists". Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials. "But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?" Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. Q: What is an "Agnostic?" A: One who doesn't know, or give a shit, if God exist or not. Q: What is "God?" A: God is God because He is. Q: No really: what is "God?" A: God is someone theists attribute all the good things that happen, like "I thank God for letting me win this football game," or "Thank God they didn't catch me molesting these alter boys," or "Thank God for my job / spouse / slaves." This Guy gets all the credit for other people's hard work and devotion. Q: I'm serious, now! What is "God?" A: God is someone theists attribute all the bad things that happen, like hurricanes that kill hundreds and leave thousands homeless ("It was God's Will"), earthquake disasters, plane crashes, New Jersey never winning the Pennant, floods, death by lightening strike, and virginity. Q: What is an "Echovangelist?" A: Steve Winter Q: Who or what is "Steve Winter" A: A jerk who was booted from Fidonet for being overly annoying in the name of the Laaard. He was since alowed back in to Fidonet because the IC is a spineless pile of shit. Ask if you want full details. Q: How does one deal with Echovangelists? A: Ignore them and let the moderator deal with them. You see, these sorry, pathetic souls NEED, and WANT, and DESIRE to be ridiculed and abused. They lust after the feeling of being persecuted, because they think it's for "defending God" when in fact it is for being an anal-retentive asshole. If they are not feeling persecuted, they feel they are not doing their job well enough to keep out of hell. Q: What is "Penis Envy?" A: This is what Randal Terry's wife, who has never seen one, suffers from. For most people, however, this is a male affliction, not a female one. According to Satan, in His book "Satan: His Psychotherapy and Cure (by the Unfortunate Doctor Kasser, J.S.P.S.)" the first words out of Eve's mouth was "Where do I get one of those?" (But then, Satan is a Freudian.) Q: What is the "Fundi-Of-The-Month" club? A: HOLYSMOKE. Almost every month, a new group of fundies shows up, spouting the same old religous/creationism claptrap. The most brainless ones have been here for upto 2 years, but most depart in a month or so. Q: What is a "Republican?" A: Someone who spends 12 years annihilating American freedoms, destroying the Supreme Court, making being black illegal, raids Social Security of 500 million dollars when they promised they wouldn't, starts wars in South Amarica, invades Panama in defience of international law had the second largest tax increase of all time -- a net increase of $125 billion over five years. [Wall Street Journal, 8/12/92], then blames the damage on his successor. A: A very sore loser. A: The USA equivilant of Sin Fein, except that they have Prodestant, rather than Catholic, leanings. Q: What is a "Democrat?" A: A commie pinko socialist traitor bleeding-heart liberal anarchist who Republicans can use as convenient scapegoats. Q: What is a "cult?" A: Anyone who doesn't belong to the same religous group that you do. A: A religon without political power. Q: What is the "OFTEN_BABBLE" (Also, "OPEN_BABBLE") echo? A: The echo is actually called OPEN_BIBLE. Q: Tell me about the "HOLY_BIBLE" echo. A: This echo is run by the emotionally ill Steve Winters, who has professed it to be THE ONLY =REAL= Christian echo on Fidonet, disregarding the dozen or so other Christian echoes, which aren't really, but just clever simulations by Satan into fooling people into believing that the echoes are Christian-based. No, really! Just ask Steve! Q: What is the "HERESY_WATCH" echo? A: The true name for Harvey Smith's CULT_WATCH echo (which doesn't). This is your basic Christian hate cult promoting ignorance, hysteria, and propaganda for God. This echo is sponsored by a messianic Jewish cult. Q: What about the "CULT_INFO" echo? A: This is a very fine echo, that constructively addresses religious differences, and seeks to find a common dialog among the various religions that are represented in the echo's readership. It is moderated by the Priestess Rowan Moonstone. This echo is ONLY accessable from PODS. Q: And the echo "BURNING_TIMES?" A: This is an echo that addresses violence in the name of religion / God. There are often newspaper articles posted here, keeping readers up to date on the "Satanic Crime" myth, and discusses attacks against such groups as Pagans, Wiccans, Christians, Homosexuals, and Jews by religionists and bigots. Q: What is the A_THEIST echo? A: A place to discuss the importance of state / church separation. We don't do god(s) here! See also CHURCH&STATE. Both are both the North Amarican backbone and on Plannet Connect. Q: What does "fundagelical" mean? A: Someone who is so narrow minded to be able to look through a keyhole with both eyes at the same time. Examples: Joe Savelli, Steve Winter, Jim Staal. Not in that order. Q: What is a "religiocrit?" A: Someone who has a special commission from upon high, or a special mandate from their cult, to be a religious hypocrite. Examples are Duane Gish and Henry Morris as well as just about 100% of all creationists. Q: And "Contradictianity?" A: This is a Christian belief that claims obvious, glaring, naked biblical contradictions aren't. Q: What is "Fundi Disk Failure?" (Also: "Sheenism") A: We often get Christians on the echo who claim they will shortly, in a few days, provide proof of their god's existence, or proof of a global flood, or proof that Earth is flat, or proof that evolution didn't and isn't occurring-- just to vanish at the appointed time, later showing up claiming a "hard disk crash" ate their proof (I hate it when that happens!). The first time someone made this claim, he blamed it on Satan. The next person this happened to blamed it on his god, Jesus-- so they got us coming and going, eh? Q: What is "The Rupture?" A: Every few months someone claims that their "Rapture" is imminent, and we must all "get right" with his gods. This causes people to laugh so hard they rupture a lower intestine. There have been claims of "imminent rapture" for hundreds of years, the latest being May 5th, 2000. There is even a Fundamentalist Christian text file telling us what to do when we find we've been left behind. Ask David Rice if you'd like a copy. Q: Why is evolution constantly a topic in HOLYSMOKE? A: Goat Bile-ed if I know! This is probably because Creationists refuse to go to the proper echo, called EVOLUTION, because there are several more well-informed scientists there than in HOLYSMOKE. As yet, no Creationist has failed to be properly corrected of their errors in HOLYSMOKE. There are several highly knowledgeable people in HOLYSMOKE who can and do refute Creationists claims. Now if the Creationists would just shut up long enough to listen. . . . Q: Are there any Satanists here? A: None that I know of. The best estimate of the number of Satanists in America is from 4,000 to 5,000 individuals ("Satan Wants You," by Arthur Lyons), so the odds of one showing up is rather slim. Many of us wish one or more would! Q: Why don't you pick on Satanists like you pick on Christians and Muslims? A: For a couple of reasons. First off, we only "pick on" someone who makes irrational and absurd claims while expecting us to believe them-- we've yet to have a Satanist come along and do so. Second, and more importantly, it is Christians who are subverting our secular nation through political means, not Satanists (how many Satanists sue the State so they may lead students in prayer?). A: Do you see any Satanists going 'round spreading hatred such as this: "Yes, even babies are born with aids. The innocent suffer all over the world along with the guilty. If you knew the Bible you would know why." - David Lewellyn Q: Why do you hate God / Jesus? A: Have you stopped beating your spouse? Do not make the mistake of believing that attacks on stupidity is equal to an attack on a god just because the person making the silly claim asserts he's speaking for his god. In the three years I've read HOLYSMOKE I have yet to see a single person hate God or Jesus-- just those who claim to be these gods followers. Many Christians commit crimes in the name of their gods-- we don't blame their gods: we blame the criminals. Q: Are "flames" allowed? A: Flames are EXPECTED. You will be treated with respect and courtesy if you extend it. The most valuable contributors, who provide references to what they say, are very seldom flamed -- if you don't like flames, stick to posting what you know or can validate. Saying "Because I say so," "Because I was told so" or reading 'PROOF' where someone wrote 'EVIDENCE' will turn you medium-rare. A: From Dan Ceppa: It, seriously, depends on how you look at it. There are times when a "polite" discourse just doesn'tget the message across. Then, the board between the eyes to get your attention works. Q: Will "Argument by authority" get me flamed? A: Depends on the authority, and if you keep all quotes in context and content. Claiming that several bright people support your assertions therefore your assertions are true DOES NOT make it so. Don't quote an astronomer on issues of biology, and a biologist on cosmology-- which is standard Creationist tactics-- because you will get roasted. Saying "Einstein believed in God (he didn't) therefore you should" will also get you roasted-- bright people CAN and DO believe silly things; just because someone is well educated in one field does not make hir an expert in other fields. Q: Does poor spelling get flamed? A: Often we see theists who mix up "Their, there, and they're," "Too, to, and two," "atheist" as "athiest," and "your" for "you're." They then in that very same message proclaim to reveal the secrets of God, the Universe, Life and all the Really Great Questions humans have pondered for a dozen millennia-- somehow a crappy speller telling us they know what no one else does just doesn't seem likely. If one does not know the difference between "Their" and "they're" worth a Goat Belch, isn't it rather PRETENTIOUS for one to be telling us all about how much one knows about god and the universe?! Q: What are the Dopefish mysteries? A: "Swim. . . swim. . . hungry. . . swim. . . swim. . . hungry." The rest is a secret, to be revealed to all shortly. Talk to the Chief Proselytizer, Steve Quarrella, for all of the facts of this Up And Coming Soon To Your Door religion. Q: "What's wrong with Fundies?" - Bruce Kazee A: From Don Martin: "Not a thing. Unlike clay pigeons, they are capable of making amusing howls whilst being shot down. HolySmoke would not be a better place without them any more than a shooting gallery would be improved by removing all the little tin ducks." A: From Marty Leipzig: "A more appropriate question would be 'What's right with fundies?'" Q: What's this 'shitlist' I keep hearing about? A: A short course in comparitive religion: 7TH DAY ADVENTIST Shit happens on Saturdays. AGNOSTICISM Does shit exist? AGNOSTICISM I don't know whether shit happens. AMARICANISM I'll gladly pay through the nose for this shit. APATHEISM Who gives a damn about this shit. ATHEISM I don't believe this shit. ATHEISM There is no shit! BAHA'I Shi't ha'ppe'ns BONZAI BOZOISM Make shit happen.. OH SHIT!! BORN AGAIN Shit happens but I am saved. BUDDHISM If shit happens, it isn't really shit. BUDDHISM When shit happens, is it really shit? BUSH A thousand points of shit. CALVINISM If you're not saved, tough shit. CASTRO We have to make this shit work somehow. CATHOLICISM If shit happens, I deserve it. CATHOLICISM Let shit happen to someone else. CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST If shit happens, don't worry. It will go away on its own time if you pray for it. CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST Shit isn't real. CONFUCIANISM Confucious say, "shit happens". DEJA VUISM I've been through this shit before. DEMOCRATISM How can we send a man to the moon and still have all this shit. DIANETICS You need to clear yourself of this shit. EASTERN ORTHODOX Rome doesn't know shit. EPISCOPALIAN Fecal matter occurs. EVANGELISM Shit happens. (Pass it on.) EXISTENTIAL I shit, therefore I sit. FUNDAMENTALISM Born-again shit. GERTRUDE STEIN A shit is a shit is a shit. GORBACHEV That shit just didn't work. HARE KRISHNA Shit happens rama rama ding ding. HEDONISM When shit happens, enjoy it! HINDUISM This shit happened before. HOLISTIC There's more shit here than I figured on. ISLAM If shit happens, it is the will of Allah. ISLAM We make shit happen to everybody else. JAINISM Shit happens but don't step in it. JEHOVAH'S WITLESS Do you want to buy a subscription to our shit? JEHOVAH'S WITLESS Knock, knock. "shit Happens." JESUITISM If shit happens and no one hears it, did it really make a sound? JIM JONESISM If shit happens, drink Kool-Aid. JUDAISM Why does this shit always happen to us? LAO-TZU It is utterly pointless to try to explain shit. MINIMALIST Shit MORMONISM Shit happens again & again & again. It's evil to say "shit." Wear your magic underware and this shit won't happen NATIVE AMERICAN We want our shit back! NEW AGE Crystal power counteracts shit. NEW AGE Shit happens and it happens to smell good. PENTACOSTALISM Praise the shit! PROTESTANTISM If shit happens, you deserve it. PROTESTANTISM This shit won't happen if I work harder. RASTAFARIANISM Let's smoke this shit. REPUBLICANISM There's nothing like a good shit. Flush the toilet. RLDS Brigham is full of shit. SATANISM Shit rules! SCIENTOLOGY This shit is expensive. SECULAR HUMANISM Shit evolves. SHINTOISM Everything except Japan is shit. STOICISM So shit happens, Big deal. I can take it. TAOISM Shit happens. TELEVANGELISM This shit won't happen if you donate $99.95 to me. UNITARIAN Shit is all basically the same. UNITARIAN What is this shit? VEGETARIANISM I don't eat that shit! ZEN What is the sound of shit happening? Q: What other related echos are there? A: A_THEIST, SKEPTIC (No religous discussion, please), HOLY_BIBLE, WHOLY_BIBLE, BIBLE, OPEN_BIBLE, UFO, I_UFO, SRA, BAMA, FMS & CHURCH&STATE. Q: What's this GOD$LOVE.GIF? A: A child preparing to feed a bird. FREQ or D/L from Steve Quarrela's board. Q: What's 'figure one?' A: _ / \ |\_/| |---| | | _ |=-=| _ / \| |/ \ _ | | | | / \| | | ||\ | | | | | \> | | | | | \ | - - - - |) ) | / \ / \ / \ / \ / | | | | [Figure 1] Q: What's the difference between philosophy and theology? A: If you have an argument over philosophy, you get red in the face. Over theology, you pull the trigger. [Q & A stolen from David Rice] Q: NOODLES??? A: Some time ago, a rather stupid fundi posted the folowing: "I know another preacher who, along with his church, prayed that the LORD would help a pot of noodles last through a social dinner, not only did they last, not only did several take home a container full of noodles, but the containers always stayed full. Finally, they had to throw them out, after thanking the LORD of course. I have seen and heard of peoples lives changed dramatically for the better, in ways that could only be called a miracle. The LORD russles the leaves if you are willing listen." - Jerry Randall This is where the "magic NOODLES" come from. Q: What's "Hector's law?" A: A fundi, given enough time, will debunk itself without outside intervention. However, the fundi is often too stupid to know that it has debunked itself. Q: Atheism kills! A: From Kelsey Bjarnason: I'd bet you can't find a _single_ instance in all of history of _anyone_ killing in the name of atheism or for a specifically atheist dogma. However, history is rife with examples of killings specifically for and because of Christianity. Q: But x is ONLY a theory! Q: Creationism is a theory! A: From Simon Ewins: I realize that you appear to have almost no scientific education at all but I am posting this and the next message in the hope that you may gain an understanding of what a scientific theory is. All of these are used in an attempt to explain a fact. The theory of evolution is used, according to these criteria, to describe the fact of evolution. The theory of gravity uses these criteria to describe the fact of gravity. When Einstein proposed a new theory to explain gravity apples did not hang in mid-air while waiting to see who was right, Einstein or Newton. The improvement or alteration of the theory did not have any effect on the fact of gravity. So it is with the fact of evolution. Please read on and discover what a theory is... A survey of the literature on the history, philosophy and sociology of science reveals that there are at least four fundamental categories of criteria by which theories are judged: (1) logical criteria (2) empirical criteria (3) sociological criteria (4) historical criteria. There are four primary logical criteria for a theory. It must be: (1.a) a simple, unifying idea that postulates nothing unnecessary ("Occam's Razor") (1.b) logically consistent internally (1.c) logically falsifiable (i.e., cases must exist in which the theory could be imagined to be invalid) (1.d) clearly limited by explicit stated boundary conditions so that it is clear whether or not any particular data are or are not relevant to the verification or falsification of the theory. The need for these four criteria should be obvious upon reflection. An idea that is too complex or deals with observations piecemeal can have no practical explanatory value for a scientist. Theories must make clear patterns of things and relationships between things. These patterns and relationships must be internally logical and consistent since these are required attributes of all sound explanations. The explanation must be falsifiable, at least logically if not by actual experiment, or else tautologies or other logically sterile constructions might be admissible as theories. Finally, a theory must be limited by boundary conditions or else there will be criteria for determining whether or not any particular observation or experiments should or should not be explainable by the theory. In fact, if a theory is totally unbounded, then it is not possible to imagine any observation that is irrelevant to verifying the theory. Thus, an unbounded theory would not be falsifiable. And, if a theory cannot be falsified, it cannot be self-corrected. Yet self-correctability is precisely the characteristic that gives scientific theories their epistemological power: a theory that is incorrect or incomplete can, by attempts to falsify it, reveal its faults or limitations and so be corrected or extended. Three empirical criteria are of primary importance as well. A theory must: (2.a) be empirically testable itself or lead to predictions or retrodictions that are testable (2.b) actually make verified predictions and/or retrodictions (2.c) concern reproducible results (2.d) provide criteria for the interpretation of data as facts, artifacts, anomalies, or as irrelevant. The basic point is that not all data are valid for testing any particular theory. Some data may be interpreted as factual (that is, they fall within the boundary conditions specified by the theory and verify its predictions or retrodictions); some may be artifactual (that is, the result of secondary or accidental influences lying outside the boundaries set for the validity of the theory); some are anomalous (that is, demonstrably valid within the bounds of the theory, but also at odds with predictions or retrodictions made by the theory); some are irreproducible and so, invalid; and some are irrelevant since they address the theory not at all. Once again, the necessity of these criteria should be relatively self-evident. It is possible to imagine theories that are logically falsifiable but experimentally untestable (as when the technology does not exist to convert the logical test into an empirical test). Such a theory cannot be either verified or falsified and so is useless in practice to an experimental scientist. One can, at best, only leave such empirically untestable ideas in the scientific purgatory of doubt. A theory must also limit what may possibly be observed in the universe. Otherwise, one would not know what to look for, where, how to look for it, under what conditions, or know whether what one saw was relevant or irrelevant to the theory. If everything is possible under an explanation, then no tests for it can exist. A theory must also make verified predictions and retrodictions to validate itself. It is possible otherwise to imagine theories that make predictions and retrodictions all of which are falsified. A theory whose predictions and retrodictions are falsified, either by the prior existence of relevant data or the subsequent discovery of relevant data, cannot be considered a valid theory. It is in need of correction or extension. And, of course, a theory based upon irreproducible results is, in effect, invalidated by the very fact that the results cannot be reproduced - for either the boundary conditions governing the collection of the data have not been properly set, or the original data may have been due simply to coincidence rather than any mechanism proposed by the theory. Sociological criteria also exist for determining the validity of a theory. A theory must: (3.a) resolve recognized problems, paradoxes, and/or anomalies irresolvable on the basis of preexisting scientific theories (3.b) pose a new set of scientific problems upon which scientists may work (3.c) posit a "paradigm" or problem-solving model by which these new problems may be expected to be resolved (3.d) provide definitions of concepts or operations beneficial to the problem-solving abilities of other scientists. Once again, the need for these criteria is manifest. An idea that does not resolve any recognized scientific problems cannot be called a scientific theory. It can have no effect upon the research activity of scientists. Similarly, an explanation that does not pose new problems does not allow scientists to learn anything they were unable to learn before. A theory therefore has no sociological value unless it provides a model for new or more efficient sorts of scientific activity. Thus, a theory must be stated in terms that are operationally useful to the community of scientists who might use the theory. If the definitions or concepts upon which the theory is based are not operationally useful, then the explanation says nothing experimentally verifiable about nature. Such an explanation cannot, therefore, be scientific. Finally, there is a fourth set of theory criteria as well: historical ones. A theory must: (4.a) meet or surpass all of the criteria set by its predecessors or demonstrate that any abandoned criteria are artifactual (4.b) be able to accrue the epistemological status acquired by previous theories through their history of testing or, put another way, be able to explain all of the data gathered under previous relevant theories in terms either of fact or artifact (no anomalies allowed) (4.c) be consistent with all preexisting ancillary theories that already have established scientific validity. These criteria are necessary to ensure that theories are correctable. Correctability, in turn, ensures the increase in explanatory power of scientific theories with time, and promotes the consistency and integration of all scientific explanations, without such criteria, scientists would be free to pick and choose data that favor their explanations while ignoring previously recorded evidence and theories that falsify their own ideas. The historical criteria make such unscientific procedures nearly impossible. The historical records of each science stand as a monument to the series of tests any new theory must pass to prove its mettle against the accumulated knowledge of nature. The longer a science has existed, the greater the accumulated knowledge concerning any particular aspect of nature. Consequently, the more difficult it becomes to reformulate all of that knowledge into a new and consistent framework. [Robert Root-Bernstein] In short, fundi, if you have a better theory of how the diversity of species came to be as they are on this planet you must fit it into the above (and preceding) framework. While your theory is being tested and evaluated the diversity of species will remain as they now are. The facts that are manifest under the banner of evolution will not go away while your theory is being developed. If you can come up with a theory to explain the fact of evolution that fits these criteria I will accept it... but _only_ if you can do so and not before. Q: "Argumentum ad ignorantum?" Excuse me? A: Here are just a few of the fallacies that many fundies have thrown about in this echo masquerading as logic: ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance". This fallacy occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it has not been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that something must be false because it has not been proved true. (Note that this is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved true, a basic scientific principle.) Examples: "Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise." "Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist. Nobody has shown any proof that they are real." Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one is generally assumed innocent until proven guilty. Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such evidence can validly be used to infer that the event did not occur. For example: "A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water to be present on the earth. The earth does not have a tenth as much water, even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles. Therefore no such flood occurred." ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. "The Bible must be true. Millions of people know that it is. Are you trying to tell them that they are all mistaken fools?" "Eat shit. Ten million flys can't be wrong." SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise. Short form: Don't attempt to prove a negatives. Unless you're an idiot. ACCENTUS Description: A Fallacy of Ambiguity, where the ambiguity arises from the emphasis (accent) placed on a word or phrase. AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT Description: An argument from the truth of a hypothetical statement, and the truth of the consequent to the truth of the antecedent. In the syllogism below, P is the antecedent and Q is the consequent: P implies Q Q is true <-- Affirming the consequent ______________ Therefore: P is true Example: The Bible implies god, therefore, god is true. AMBIGUITY Description: An argument in the course of which at least one term is used in different senses. Also known as equivocation. There are several types of "fallacies of ambiguity," including REIFICATION, EQUIVOCATION, AMPHIBOLY, COMPOSITION, DIVISION, and ACCENTUS. AMPHIBOLY Description: A type of Fallacy of Ambiguity where the ambiguity involved is of an "amphibolous" (equivocal, uncertain) nature. Amphiboly is a syntactic error. The fallacy is caused by faulty sentence structure, and can result in a meaning not intended by the author. "The department store now has pants for men with 32 waists." (How many waists do you have? I have only one!) ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply because it is old; that is, because "that's the way it's always been." Example: The Bible is 2000 years old! It /MUST/ be true! ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM Description: An argument that resorts to the threat of force to cause the acceptance of the conclusion. Ad baculum arguments also include threats of fear to cause acceptance. Example: You'll go to hell if you don't follow my loving god. ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM Description: Fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness; that those with more money are more likely to be right. ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM (AKA Flame) Description: An argument that attempts to disprove the truth of what is asserted by attacking the speaker rather than the speaker's argument. Another way of putting it: Fallacy where you attack someone's character instead of dealing with salient issues. There are two basic types of ad hominem arguments: (1) abusive, and (2) circumstantial. ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM Description: A fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or more virtuous than one who is wealthier. This fallacy is the opposite of the informal fallacy "argumentum ad crumenam." ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM Description: An argument that appeals to pity for the sake of getting a conclusion accepted. ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM Description: The incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the more often it is heard. An "argumentum ad nauseum" is one that employs constant repitition in asserting a truth. ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer than something else. Or that something is better because it is newer. This type of fallacy is the opposite of the "argumentum ad antiquitam" fallacy. ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM Description: An argument that appeals to the beliefs of the multitude (i.e., the "populace"). Another way of putting it: Speaker deals with passions of audience rather than with salient issues. This fallacy is also known as "Appeal to Tradition" Ad populum arguments often occur in (1) propaganda, (2) demagoguery, and (3) advertising. ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM Description: An argument in which an authority is appealed to on matters outside his/her field of authority. "Ad verecundiam" also refers to a fallacy of simply resorting to appeals to authority. BEGGING THE QUESTION (CIRCULAR REASONING) Description: An argument that assumes as part of its premises the very conclusion that is supposed to be true. Another way of saying this is: Fallacy of assuming at the onset of an argument the very point you are trying to prove. The fallacy is also sometimes referred to as "Circulus in Probando." This Fallacy is also known by the Latin "PETITIO PRINCIPII". Example: The Bible is true because god said it was. I know god is real becase the Bible said so. BIFURCATION Description: Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy, bifurcation is the presentation of a situation or condition with only two alternatives, whereas in fact other alternatives exist or can exist. COMPOSITION Description: An argument in which one assumes that a whole has a property solely because its various parts have that property. Composition is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL Description: If P then Q, therefore, if Q then P. Example: Hitler used evolution, therefore, everyone who follows evolution supports Hitler. CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC Description: A fallacy of correlation that links events because they occur simultaneously; one asserts that because two events occur together they are causally related, and leaves no room for other factors that may be the cause(s) of the events. This fallacy is similar to the "post hoc" fallacy. DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT Description: An argument in which one infers the falsity of the consequent from the truth of a hypothetical proposition, and the falsity of its antecedent. P implies Q Not-P ____________ Therefore: Not-Q DIVISION Description: An argument in which one assumes that various parts have a property solely because the whole has that same property. Division is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. EQUIVOCATION Description: An argument in which an equivocal expression is used in one sense in one premise and in a different sense in another premise, or in the conclusion. Equivocal means (1) of uncertain significance; not determined, and (2) having different meanings equally possible. Equivocation is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. The opposite of equivocation is "unovocation," in which a word always carries the same meaning through a given context. FALLACY OF INTERROGATION Description: The question asked has a presuppostion which the answerer may wish to deny, but which he/she would be accepting if he/she gave anything that would count as an answer. Any answer to the question "Why does such-and-such happen?" presupposes that such-and-such does indeed happen. FALSE ANALOGY Description: An analogy is a partial similarity between the like features of two things or events on which a comparison can be made. A false analogy involves comparing two things that are NOT similar. Note that the two things may be similar in superficial ways, but not with respect to what is being argued. SECUNDUM QUID (HASTY GENERALIZATION) Description: An argument in which a proposition is used as a premise without attention given to some obvious condition that would affect the proposition's application. This fallacy is also known as the "hasty generalization." It is a fallacy that takes evidence from several, possibly unrepresentative, cases to a general rule; generalizing from few to many. Note the relation to statistics: Much of statistics concerns whether or not a sample is representative of a larger population. The larger the sample size, the better the representativeness. Note also that the opposite of a hasty generalization is a sweeping generalization. IGNORATIO ELENCHI Description: An argument that is supposed to prove one proposition but succeeds only in proving a different one. Ignoratio elenchi stands for "pure and simple irrelevance." ILLICIT PROCESS Description: A syllogistic argument in which a term is distributed in the conclusion, but not in the premises. One of the rules for a valid categorical syllogism is that if either term is distributed in the conclusion, then it must be distributed in the premises. There are two types of Illicit Process: Illicit Process of the Major Term and Illicit Process of the Minor Term. PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM (MANY QUESTIONS) Description: A demand for a simple answer to a complex question. Example: The US schools are going down the drain because the school day is no longer started with a prayer. NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA Description: An argument to reject a proposition because of the falsity of some other proposition that seems to be a consequence of the first, but really is not. NON-SEQUITUR Description: An argument in which the conclusion is not a necessary consequence of the premises. Another way of putting this is: A conclusion drawn from premises that provide no logical connection to it. PETITIO PRINCIPII Description: Same as "Begging the Question" The argument assumes its conclusion is true but DOES NOT SHOW it to be true. Petitio principii has two forms: 1. P is true, because P is true. 2. P is true, because A is true. And A is true because B is true. And B is true because P is true. Similar to circular reasoning. POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC Description: An argument from a premise of the form "A preceded B" to a conclusion of the form "A caused B." Simply because one event precedes another event in time does not mean that the first event is the cause of the second event. This argument resembles a fallacy known as a Hasty Generalization. QUATERNIO TERMINORUM Description: An argument of the syllogistic form in which there occur four or more terms. In a standard categorical syllogism there are only three terms: a subject, a predicate, and a middle term. RED HERRING Description: A fallacy when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue being discussed, such that everyone's attention is diverted away from the points being made, and toward a different conclusion. It is not logically valid to divert a chain of reasoning with extraneous points. REIFICATION Description: To reify something is to convert an abstract concept into a concrete thing. Reification is a Fallacy of Ambiguity. Reification is also sometimes known as a fallacy of "hypostatization". SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF (AKA Fundi shuffle) Description: The burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of "argumentum ad ignorantium," is a fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise. SPECIAL PLEADING (DOUBLE STANDARD) Description: Special pleading is a logical fallacy wherein a double standard is employed by the person making the assertion. Special pleading typically happens when one insists upon less strict treatment for the argument he/she is making than he or she would make when evaluating someone else's arguments. STRAW MAN Description: It is a fallacy to misrepresent someone else's position for the purposes of more easily attacking it, then to knock down that misrepresented position, and then to conclude that the original position has been demolished. It is a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that one has made. Example: Evolution says humans evolved from monkeys. SWEEPING GENERALIZATION Description: Also known by the Latin term "DICTO SIMPLICITER", a Sweeping Generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a particular situation in which the features of that particular situation render the rule inapplicable. A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a hasty generalization. TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT (TU QUOQUE) Description: Two wrongs never add up to a right; you cannot right a wrong by applying yet another wrong. Such a fallacy is a misplaced appeal to consistency. It is a fallacy because it makes no attempt to deal with the subject under discussion. UNDISTRIBUTED MIDDLE Description: A syllogistic argument in which the middle term of a categorical syllogism is not distributed in at least one of the premises. ARGUMENTUM AD BOZM NON-CHRISTI Description: This is the falacy that a Christian cannot commit any crime or ethicly irresponsible act. See "not true christian." C. J. Henshaw - Fidonet: 1:250/820 - Internet: cjh@tcsconcordia.tor250.org Coridon Henshaw - Fidonet: 1:250/820 - Internet: csbh@tcsconcordia.tor250.org Brown-nose, Network! Ass kissing for Jesus!