AppleLink APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG January 10, 1989 10:00 pm Eastern Topic: BASIC Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim) AFL Jim I'd like to welcome everyone to the Development Forum. Tonight's AFL Jim topic *is* BASIC. AFA Parik :) AFL Jim 10 GOTO 10 KyleI1 Please slow down. I'm only 11; bear with me. :) JSchober Jim writes COMPLEX programs, it looks like... JSchober Hi, Rick. KyleI1 AFL Jim, into "dead" routines? AFL Jim <- looping RickKE Hi JS JSchober Ugh. Hi, Marty! AFL Marty <- indexing ScottG25 Hi! Marty! RickKE Hi Marty ScottG25 Hi RicKE! KyleI1 Excuse me, let's just settle down and get started... I'm not very patient AFA Gary J CTRL-C .... "beep" JSchober Hi, John. AFA Gary J Hi John. KyleI1 CTRL-G...."beep" AFL Marty Hi John! JSchober No. Ctrl-C... "BREAK IN 10". AFA John Hi Marty, Gary, and Joey! RickKE Hi John! AFA Gary J (Right, Joe! :) AFA John Hi Rick. AFL Jim OK, let's get into BASIC here. Kyle, do you have any questions you'd like to JSchober (or on a GS, replace with ) AFL Jim start off with? KyleI1 It's too bad I can't screen dump my biggest program; we'd be sitting here AFL Jim (protocol *please*) KyleI1 for hours! AFA Gary J Q = Kyle KyleI1 Protocol? AFL Jim Yes... Dave Lyons (back) I actually did leave (physically) AFL Jim Type a "?" on a line if you have a question. Type a "!" if you'd like to make AFL Jim a comment. KyleI1 I regret not seeing the protocol rules like everyone else... ;) KyleI1 ! Ok. AFL Jim Go ahead, Kyle KyleI1 ? Who's the Sysop? AFL Jim Gary will keep the queue. AFL Jim I'm the Forum Leader. JSchober (greetings, Matt!) AFL Jim (at least here in this forum) KyleI1 ! Oh, sorry, Jim. KyleI1 Those banners! Matt DTS Hi (AFK, just watching from a comfortable position) AFA Gary J Q = Kyle DanB35 ?how does protocol work: Do I type ? and wait to be called? AFA Gary J Right, Dan.... I'll put you in the queue. AFL Jim Kyle, you only need to type a ? or ! "raise your hand" we'll call on you in KyleI1 I was wondering that too, DanB35. AFA Gary J Q = Kyle, Dan AFL Jim the order the questions or comments are received. KyleI1 OK, now shutting up... Please start this thing, you're using up my Log File. AFL Jim It's already started, Kyle. KyleI1 Ok. KyleI1 ? AFL Jim go ahead, Kyle KyleI1 Why isn't anyone talking? AFL Jim We were waiting for your question, Kyle KyleI1 Oh. Well... Ralfy 21 people - sheesh what a mob! Ralfy Hi all. AFL Jim Well, let me start off with this... KyleI1 I was wondering how to copy BASIC files from INSIDE a BASIC file. Dave Lyons ! AFL Jim ooops, GA Kyls AndyWells ! AFL Jim GA Dave KyleI1 OPEN, READ, CLOSE doesn't work. Dave Lyons There's no command built into BASIC.SYSTEM for copying files, so you have Dave Lyons a couple of alternatives. (OPEN/READ/CLOSE were designed for text files, or AFA Gary J Q = Kyle (Dave, Andy), Dan Dave Lyons for reading DIRs _as_ text files, so they don't help much.) You can either Dave Lyons buy an add-on COPY command for BASIC.SYSTEM (any package names come to mind, Airship ? KyleI1 Use EXECs to load them into /RAM and vice versa? Dave Lyons guys?), or you can carefully use BLOAD and BSAVE to copy files one chunk at a AFA Gary J Q = Kyle (Dave, Andy), Dan, Airship AFL Marty ! Dave Lyons time (or in one chunk if they're small). The ",Txxx" option will be needed to Dave Lyons stop BSAVE/BLOAD from complaining that the files aren't BIN files. (done for Dave Lyons now) Matt DTS ! AFL Jim GA ANdy KyleI1 ! Ralfy There are some Shareware programs (very nice) in the Applelink libs. AndyWells Well, a couple of added comments. AFA Gary J Q = Kyle (Andy, Marty, Matt), Dan, Airship Ralfy Procopy works from within a Basis program. Ralfy Basic. AndyWells First, a BAS program cannot be properly copied with BLOAD/BSAVE since the aux AndyWells type must be $801. You really should use an EXEC file. That file can be DanB35 ? AndyWells created by your program, then the program exited (After the EXEC), but make KyleI1 It'll take some work, but thanks! JSchober ? Matt DTS !! AndyWells sure you have the EXEC file execute the program you want it to. KyleI1 Thanks! AndyWells You can set your EXEC file up as STARTUP to do it too.. AFA Gary J Q = Kyle (Andy, Marty, Matt!!), Dan, Airship, Joe AndyWells DONE KyleI1 But I can't have a copy program set it up that way... KyleI1 DONE AFL Jim Marty, GA with your comment.... AFL Jim and then Matt !!!! Matt DTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AFL Marty The Procopy command is part of the ProPower Utilities package written AFL Jim (thanks, Matt ;) AFL Marty by Bill Tudor. It's available in the library here. AFL Marty done AFL Jim GA Matt!!! KyleI1 ! Matt DTS THANK YOU! AFA Gary J Q = Kyle (MATT!!!), Dan, Airship, Joe Matt DTS (He's gotta work next to me in a few weeks and I'll have my fun then) AFL Jim ut oh... Matt DTS Unfortunately, doing this with an EXEC file just isn't that easy. Here's why: AFA Gary J :) RickKE ? Matt DTS Normally, the last line in the EXEC is something like "RUN MYPROGRAM", and... KyleI1 !!!!!!!!! AFA Gary J Q = Kyle (Matt), Dan, Airship, Joe, Rick Matt DTS ...this has the side effect of leaving the EXEC file open. So if you're... Matt DTS ...on a one-drive system and ever try to PREFIX to another disk... Matt DTS ...BASIC.SYSTEM will return I/O ERROR, which is the translation of the MLI... Matt DTS ...error "Disk switched", since the open EXEC file is no longer online. AndyWells About 8 pokes and a call will fix that... Matt DTS The added COPY command is really the best way to go about this; you can... Matt DTS ...write one yourself with minimal features if you know machine language. KyleI1 Matt, I'm on a 2-drive system. KyleI1 And I don't know machine lang. Matt DTS And as someone who's in a position to know, Andy, I wouldn't be POKEing and... Matt DTS ...CALLing into BASIC.SYSTEM at this point. (Kyle, all your users might not.) Matt DTS GA. AFA Gary J Q = Kyle (Matt), Dan, Airship, Joe, Rick AFL Jim Get enough, Kyle? KyleI1 OK. AFL Jim OK, you're up, Dan! Matt DTS (Unless the pokes or calls are in the $BExx page, of course. Forgot that.) AFL Jim GA with your question... AFA Gary J Q = Dan, Airship, Joe, Rick DanB35 How can I access the GS's Sound potential through AppleSoft (dumb ?) Dave Lyons ! AFL Jim No question is a dumb question, Dan... JSchober AFL Jim GA Dave Dave Lyons Since nobody else seems to want to answer that..."with great difficulty." Not AFA Gary J Q = Dan (Dave), Airship, Joe, Rick Dave Lyons a dumb question at all, but I don't know of any utilities to make things easy AFL Marty ! JSchober ! Dave Lyons for you; you may be stuck with using maching language routines to call the Dave Lyons Sound Manager (toolset #8; see Toolbox Reference Vol I from Addison-Wesley). Dave Lyons (done) DanB35 ! AFL Jim GA Marty AFA Gary J Q = Dan (Marty, Joe), Airship, Joe, Rick Dave Lyons (Oops! Vol II of the TB Ref. Sorry.) AFL Marty What about the Sonix program from So What Software? Won't that allow access JSchober (cancel my ! ... :) AFL Marty to the sound features on the GS? AFL Jim Yep, it will, Marty AFL Marty (and I didn't even need a TB Ref :) DanB35 I don't know ML; are there any shareware progs. in the libs.? AFL Jim So What Software can be reached at 10221 Slater Ave, Suite 103, Matt DTS ! AFL Jim Fountain Valley, CA 92708 AFA Gary J Q = Dan (Matt), Airship, Joe, Rick AFL Jim GA Matt DanB35 ... or freeware, or PD..... Matt DTS Matt DTS Dan, I personally believe you'll be better off using a full 16-bit BASIC... AFL Jim (and I kewn this was coming :) Matt DTS ...such as TML, Micol, or ORCA (when released) or AC/BASIC... AFA Gary J hehe :) AFL Jim (knew it too :) Matt DTS ...than trying to access a whole lot of things from AppleSoft that it wasn't... Matt DTS ...meant to do. Matt DTS I just believe programmers will be better off with a more powerful language... Matt DTS ...than trying to superimpose every new feature on a 10-year old dialect of... AFA Gary J Q = Dan (Matt), Airship, Joe, Rick DanB35 Is there a PD, freeware, or shareware utility which will give me access to... Matt DTS ...BASIC that has faulty arithmetic in it even. GA. DanB35 The GS's sound? AFL Jim I can agree with Matt on this... although I know Applesoft better than any AFL Jim other BASIC, I've found the newer IIGS BASIC give you much easier access to AFL Jim the power of the IIGS. DanB35 < trying to go low-budget... ;) > Dave Lyons ! PrimeDude how much is your time worth? :) AFL Jim ScottG!! any suggestions from your side? AFA Gary J Q = Dan (Dave), Airship, Joe, Rick Dave Lyons Dan, you definitely won't be able to use the Note Synthesizer or Note Dave Lyons Sequencer from Applesoft--those are RAM-based tools, and the Loader (part of Dave Lyons GS/OS) isn't available to load it under ProDOS 8. (done) DanB35 UG. Oh well... Dave Lyons ("it" = "them") Matt DTS But with a 16-bit BASIC, you could use them SO easily! AFL Jim You might check the Music Forum here on AppleLink... they might have something AFL Jim of interest to you, Dan. DanB35 OK then, what's the cheapest 16-bit BASIC? DanB35 < Cheapskate me... :) > AFL Marty ! AFL Jim GA Marty AFL Marty Opinion here.... AFA Gary J Q = Dan (Marty), Airship, Joe, Rick AFL Marty You get (mostly) what you pay for. What you save in terms of dollars... Matt DTS ! AFL Marty may be more than made up in terms of lost time and 'sweat equity'. Just off DanB35 Rephrase: What's the best _value_ on a 16 bit BASIC? Raider10 Can I ask someone about using a modem on BASIC Matt DTS (withdraw the !; Marty said what I was thinking) AFL Marty the top of my head, I think ORCA Basic sounds like it will be a winner.... AFL Jim Put Raider in the queue, Gary. AFA Gary J Q = Dan, Airship, Joe, RIck, Raider AFL Marty if only because of ByteWorks' reputation. AFL Marty done AFL Jim Dan, they all run somewhere between $80-100 mail order. DanB35 I know, I know... repeat: UG! AFL Jim Let's move along here... AFA Gary J Q = Airship, Joe, Rick, Raider AFL Jim GA Airship with your question. ScottG25 ! Airship Have any of you seen Orca Basic yet? I'm currently using TML Basic which is a Raider10 Who sent me the flashnote?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Airship very nice system but still has a few bugs that are driving me nuts!!! Raider10 Thank you AFL Jim ORCA/BASIC should be out sometime this spring according to the Byte Works. Ralfy ? Airship I was just wondering if anyone had even seen it in Beta form. Dave Lyons ! AFA Gary J Q = Airship (Dave), Joe, Rick, Raider, Ralfy Dave Lyons Airship, if anybody here _has_ seen an unreleased product, most likely they've Dave Lyons also signed something saying they can't admit it. (done) ScottG25 ! Airship Hmmm...didn't realize that... JSchober (oops! there goes Jim... :( ) AFL Marty Jimmy go bye bye :) AFA Gary J Ooops! AFA Parik Give a person DTS position, and he thinks he can walk out on us. :) Airship I agree with the earlier comment about Orca's rep....am looking forward to it. Raider10 HAHA Airship (done) JSchober :) Parik... AFL Marty ! ScottG25 ! Matt DTS Watch it Parik. There's plenty of room in the next release of GS/OS... AFA Gary J GA, Scott Matt DTS ...to say rude things about you. Raider10 bye all AFA John LOL! JSchober LOL... (can I say rude things about him, too, Matt?! ;) AFA Parik :P Matt AFL Marty (Must be practising his coffee break :) Matt DTS ScottG25 I just want to agree with those who said Orca will probably be the basic AFA Gary J Q = Airship (Scott, Marty), Joe, RIck, Raider, Ralfy ScottG25 of choice on the GS... Everything ByteWorks has done that I've purchased (M for ScottG25 the GS, and Pascal) are top notch products. GA AFA Gary J Re-hi, Jim :) JSchober (wow! welcome back, Jim! :) Dave Lyons Re-hi, Jim :) AFL Jim (Telenet in KC died....) AFA Gary J GA, Marty AFL Marty I believe if you check the message board, you'll find a substantial... AFL Jim (Back with Tymenet) AFL Marty discussion of ORCA Basic. ScottG25 (missed the Pie throwing) AFL Marty done AFA Gary J Q = Airship (Marty), Joe, Rick, Raider, Ralfy AFL Marty (coffee break over already, Jim? :) Raider10 Hi Kyle AFL Jim yep Airship I'll do that, thanx. AFL Jim OK, Joe, your question is next. Raider10 Anyone have a BBS prog here? JSchober Alrighty... I'm working on a command-line shell in BASIC (well, the parser and JSchober dispatcher are in BASIC; actual disk I/O is in m/l)... what I'd LIKE to do is AFA Gary J Q = Joe, Rick, Raider, Ralfy JSchober be able to implement script files by simply putting shell commands into a text JSchober file, and EXEC'ing the thing. I was under the impression that EXEC simply JSchober passed the contents of a disk file to INPUT (or equiv) statements; however, a Raider10 Does anyone have a BBS Here Raider10 Or are you a SysOp JSchober file in the script like echo Hello, World! gets passed as ... JSchober echoHelloWorld!, and rejected. Any ideas why that happens, or how to get JSchober around it? Dave Lyons ! AFA Gary J Q = Joe (Dave), Rick, Raider, Ralfy Dave Lyons Sounds mysterious to me, Joe. Are you using GETLN to read lines, or what? AFL Jim GA Dave JSchober I'm using a custom input routine that basically does RDKEY's (ummm... or JSchober is it GETKEY?) repeatedly until RETURN. It works just dandy at the keyboard, JSchober or over the modem. JSchober (ga...) AndyWells ! Dave Lyons Beats me what's happening...if a small piece of code can demo the problem, Dave Lyons send it to me! AFL Jim Andy... GA AFA Gary J Q = Joe (Dave, Andy), Rick, Raider, Ralfy KyleI1 ! KyleI1 ! JSchober Alright, I'll write up a short demo and send it to ya' tonight... (it's RDKEY) AndyWells Well, I do not believe that GETKEY will do it for you. AndyWells Or RDKEY. KyleI1 ! AFA Gary J Q = Joe (Andy, Kyle), Rick, Raider, Ralfy KyleI1 ! AndyWells Since you are inputting lines, you should use the GETLN routine. JSchober What's the problem there? It seems to work fine EXCEPT for the ignored spaces. AndyWells Try it that way, and I think you will find that it works then. AndyWells Done JSchober (and I =can't= use GETLN ... :( I need certain special things for the bulletin KyleI1 Jschober, I probably don't know what I'm saying, but... JSchober board system...) Raider10 I have to go bye AFL Jim Bye Raider AndyWells GETLN should return the exact data stored in the file. KyleI1 EXEC files are for commands(E.G. immediate execution) in BASIC? PrimeDude (or just look in the $200 buffer after the file call and get the data yourself..) AFA Gary J Q = Joe (Kyle), Rick, Ralfy KyleI1 done JSchober Ummm... ok, just a second, here... JSchober The code I use is in the form CALL ,misc.parms...,I$, where I$ is what JSchober I'm inputting. The m/l code itself repeatedly RDKEY's, until it gets an #$8D; AndyWells Remember this, a call to RDKEY will read the whole line from the disk. JSchober then it moves I$ from $200..?? to a variable (using some ASoft subroutines). I AndyWells It's a wonder that you got most of it. RickKE I'M BACK. Got cut off????.. RickKE ? JSchober use this for user input and disk input (READ file), and it works perfectly; AFA Gary J You're still in the queue, Rick. JSchober only with the EXEC mode am I getting problems... I tried to use READ's instead, KyleI1 Why do you use that instead of EXEC filename? AFA Gary J Q = Joe, Rick, Ralfy JSchober which works ... kinda -- certain routines expect fileref #1 to be free. GA... AndyWells When I wrote routines a long time ago for my BBS, I separated the routines Ralfy ! AndyWells I used separate disk access routines from user input routines.. AFA Gary J Q = Joe (Andy, Ralfy), Rick, Ralfy AndyWells You might be better off doinf it that way. Done. AndyWells f=g AFL Jim Ralfy, your comment? JSchober Mmmm... I could, but I'd like to eliminate redundancy, if at all possible... Ralfy Why not get the bytes yourself with a LDA (or whatever) from the 'keyboard'.. Ralfy byte in memory? Ralfy (done) JSchober An EXEC won't pass data to $C000 ... AFA Gary J Q = Joe, Rick, Ralfy JSchober Ah well ... unless anyone has another idea, thanks anyway ... GA. AFL Jim OK Rick. Your turn. AFL Marty (You could get rid of your BBS :):) AFA Gary J :) RickKE I have a question about DOS 3.3 to ProDos conversion. After I converted my RickKE program it crashes JSchober It's been considered =many= times, Marty... AFL Jim What kind of program? BASIC? BIN? RickKE I also used APEX Text for text generation RickKE The program is BASIC with some Mchn routines AFA Gary J Does it crash into the monitor, or just break into the BASIC prompt? Matt DTS Machine routines that do what? AFL Jim That is the start of your problems - the ML routines. RickKE Monitor Dave Lyons Machine routines that load _at what addresses_? AFA Gary J Q = Rick, Ralfy Matt DTS (You include the Monitor with your program?) RickKE I'm looking AFL Jim DOS and ProDOS don't use the same memory, so it's very likely they are running AFL Jim over (or getting run over by) ProDOS. RickKE $4000 Matt DTS What do your machine language routines do, Rick? AFL Jim Either that or they call routines that are in DOS 3.3. RickKE One is the text generator and the other is a timer Matt DTS What address does it crash into the monitor at? (Clearly fishing here) RickKE The text generator begins at $7700 AFL Jim Here's a pole, Matt __________ Matt DTS Text generator: Ends at? Dave Lyons Ouch! I smell HIMEM trouble. AFA Gary J Q = Rick, Ralfy RickKE Let me check RickKE Ends at $6000 JSchober (that's amazing! it takes -$1700 bytes!) Dave Lyons :) AFA Gary J What?? :) AFL Jim :) Matt DTS Begins at $7700 and ends at $6000 for a total length of -$1700 bytes. Wow. JSchober (I wish =I= could write such compact code...) AndyWells So do I.. AFL Jim Is the length, $6000, Rick? Dave Lyons You don't need to, Joe--waste as much space as you want, but be sure to load Dave Lyons in lots of copies of that -$1700 routine.... ;) AFA Gary J Special offer : Get free RAM with this program.... JSchober hehehehe RickKE No the location is $6000 Matt DTS You said the location was $7700! AFL Jim OK, how log in the routine, then? AndyWells Maybe it loads in at $6000 and ends at $7700? Matt DTS Say, there's a thought! AFL Jim log - long AFA Gary J Q = Rick, Ralfy RickKE Large font is at $7700, small font at $6800 and the generatos is at $6000-$6800 Matt DTS Ok, now we're cooking. How large is the large font? AFL Jim How big is the large font (in bytes) AFA Gary J If it's that low in memory, it shouldn't effect ProDOS unless it is trying to AFA Gary J call a DOS 3.3 routine. Matt DTS Do you load the fonts, or does the generator load them on command? RickKE Large is from $6b00-$7700 RickKE On command Dave Lyons ! Matt DTS bingo (it seems) AndyWells There's the problem AFL Jim The Generator loads them? AFL Jim It is probably calling DOS 3.3 which isn't there. Dave Lyons If HIMEM is being set to just below the first location of the code, then AFA Gary J Q = Rick (Matt, Dave), Ralfy Dave Lyons BASIC.SYSTEM will use the first 1024 bytes of the code as buffer space! HIMEM AndyWells It's probably trying to call the DOS 3.3 file manager through $3D6 maybe.. Dave Lyons is used somewhat differently than under DOS 3.3. Must always set it to a Dave Lyons multiple of 256, and storing something _above_ himem is tricky, and storing Dave Lyons _below_ himem can't be done (it moves around automatically as files are opened Dave Lyons and closed). So it looks like there may be _several_ problems to deal with. AndyWells I'd call $bef5 with A holding $36. Instead of useing HIMEM Matt DTS You can get buffer space from BASIC.SYSTEM if you really want it. Matt DTS The technique to do it (which Andy is giving an example of)... Matt DTS ...is in ProDOS 8 TN #9, which should be up here just any day now (I hope). AFA Gary J Q = Rick, Ralfy, AFL Jim My fist job at Apple, Matt? Matt DTS (ahem) AFL Jim first RickKE Thanks. Matt DTS (whatever) AFA Gary J :) Matt DTS (no, it's already written and in distribution; APE should have them soon.) AFA Gary J Oh, so Jim will distribute them, huh? :) AFL Jim Rick, the bottom line on all of this is that converting BASIC programs is AndyWells $BEF% is the allocate buffer/memory entry point, A holds the number of pages. AFL Jim fairly easy until you start converting programs that use ML routines. The ML Dave Lyons (%=5) AndyWells When it comes back, A holds the page # of HIMEM. AndyWells %=5 AFA Gary J Q = Rick, Ralfy, AndyWells To release it, call $BEF8. Matt DTS You can also set RSHIMEM to keep FREBUFR from freeing up that space as well. AFL Jim routines can: Call DOS 3.3 which won't be there; Load into memory that ProDOS Dave Lyons Andy, to you need to add 4 to that returned value, or does it actually return JSchober (releases ALL of it, no?) Dave Lyons 4 more than the new value of HIMEM? Matt DTS RSHIMEM = $BF98? (Working from memory here; see P8 TN #9) Matt DTS (I meant $BE9F) AFL Jim will run over; or Run over ProDOS among other things. AFL Jim A good book for solving some of your problems is "ProDOS Inside and Out" by AndyWells Good ? I'll check.. AFL Jim Dennis Doms and Tom Weishaar. AFA Gary J Q = Rick, Ralfy, Matt DTS I like "Exploring Apple's GS/OS and ProDOS 8" by Gary Little... Matt DTS ...since my name's in it (unabashed plug). AFL Jim I'm waiting for it, Matt... AFL Jim Ralfy, GA with your question. Matt DTS Gary showed it to me today; so it's being shipped. Looks nifty. RickKE bye Matt DTS Bye and good luck, Rick. AFL Jim Bye Rick JSchober (bye, Rick) Ralfy I wrote a routine in TML BASIC to process lots of text. Ran into the 32K ... RickKE Thanks for the help:) AFA Gary J Q = Ralfy AndyWells Actually Dave, you have to remember to count starting at $9A00, not $9600. Ralfy problem. Is there any way to compress or clear the string pool area? 99% Ralfy of the pool is old data. Matt DTS "The 32K problem..." Hmmm. AndyWells The number returned will not include the first buffer, so subtract 4. Ralfy TML BASIC has a string pool definable from 8 to 32K. When it's full yopu get Ralfy an error message. The FRE commands have nothing to do with strings. Matt DTS Well, I'm out on this one. Any takers? AFL Jim looking.... AndyWells Most BASIC's of that sort have a FRE$ command. If it doesn't, I don't know AndyWells $99 Matt DTS While we have this lull in the action, I'd like to suggest to Quantum... Matt DTS ...that they save space in the billing computer by keeping track of all our... Matt DTS ...bills by using a nibble value. This will save a lot of space on their part. Matt DTS (And also keep our bills from going over $16, for that matter.) JSchober :) hehehe Dave Lyons (Yeah, I want my bill to wrap around from $15 to 0, too....) AFL Jim :) Matt DTS Just a friendly suggestion. Ralfy There are 11 variations of the FRE command. They all tell you how much free JSchober (less than that! they still need a decimal field.......) Ralfy memory is left. Dave Lyons (15 cents is even better) AFA Parik (next thing you know, he'll want to keep it as a bit...) Ralfy Have I struck out? AFL Jim I've been looking Ralfy, but TML's manual is kind of sparse when it come to Matt DTS A bit of what? AndyWells The returned value is the bottom of the allocated space, then the buffer is... JSchober There ya' go, Dave... or better yet, Parik... AFL Jim telling how things work. Ralfy (Sigh) AndyWells below that. JSchober Your bill is either $0.01 or $0.00 ... how nice. (Sounds like beta, actually) AFA Parik :-) Matt DTS If TML had a STORE/RESTORE option, you could do that to wipe out the dead space AFL Jim Leave your question in the message boards with an example and I'll work on it. Matt DTS but I really have no solid ideas. Ralfy O.K. Ralfy I think our hour is up. Matt DTS Only about 20 minutes ago. Ralfy Gnite all......... AFA Parik Thanks to Matt, we can only measure fifteen minutes... AFA Gary J Goodnight, Ralfy AFL Jim Bye Ralfy Matt DTS I'll be leaving now too. Goodnight all. (hey, I didn't say it was *perfect*) ScottG25 Bye Ralfy AFA Gary J Goodnight, Matt. ScottG25 Night, Matt!